Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[Dark Dragon]

Have to stick with Kae'Yoss on this one. B-S-T was never an issue IMC, IIRC. I can't remember a session when the players diskussed that tactic in detail to attack a major villain...Reasons:

First, the foes at high/epic levels very often use Mind Blank (a spell I don't really like as a DM, but what's good for the goose...).
Then they sometimes use a Forbiddance. Or a Weird Stone, a nice teleport blocker (see PGtF).
Third, even if the party is able to do the B-S-T thing, the PCs rarely know details about the foe's defenses. That includes monsters, traps and ongoing spells, like a greater glyph combined with a greater dispelling...

If a party would try a B-S-T while I am DM, and there would be a bad preparation, i.e. not gaining more knowledge about the destination area, I wouldn't hesitate to pull out all stops to make the BBEG worth his salt. And that could include a TPK, no mercy...

The players I know used more often the combo Wind Walk, Invisibility and Telepathic Bond. If there are no good counter measures, a party may strike at important positions without draining its powers in fighting mooks or getting around traps before.

 

[S'mon]

We had fights like this, too. They never took 4 hours real-time. Maybe longer than a few minutes, but I doubt it. Definetly not beyond 10 minutes. A couple of area spells, thinning the herd right there, and after that it's attack rolls. Roll, hit, roll, deal damage. The life expectancy of a mook in these circumstances is a couple of seconds real time.

And that's only when we feel like playing that fight. Usually, things are handwaved "They're just mooks, we don't have to play this. Strike out some fireballs, and a couple of healing spells, that should cover it."

Hm, if they'd been 1 -hd orcs or similar it might have gone fast, but they were AIR 1st - 6th level Duergar, with Duergar abilities (enlargement, invisibility), some spellcasters, good CON, hp and saves, etc. And tactically savvy. Just tough enough to make for one extremely lengthy encounter!

 

[Crothian]

Essentially, I got caught not doing my prep. In a high level game, you can't do that. At low levels, you can wing it and have a pretty decent chance of getting it right. High level doesn't have that flexibility. There are just too many variables.

High level I've found I can wing just as easily. Ya, there are a lot of variables but I can still ignore them and get close to what I need to challenge my group. And high level is very flexible.

 

[Reynard]

If a party would try a B-S-T while I am DM, and there would be a bad preparation, i.e. not gaining more knowledge about the destination area, I wouldn't hesitate to pull out all stops to make the BBEG worth his salt. And that could include a TPK, no mercy...

The players I know used more often the combo Wind Walk, Invisibility and Telepathic Bond. If there are no good counter measures, a party may strike at important positions without draining its powers in fighting mooks or getting around traps before.

Punishing your players for using the resources at their disposal seems a little harsh to me. I mean, if the DM is just going to block you from using any of the more interesting abilities of high level play, why bother at all? We can slog through mysteries and swing swords all day at lower levels.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Punishing your players for using the resources at their disposal seems a little harsh to me. I mean, if the DM is just going to block you from using any of the more interesting abilities of high level play, why bother at all? We can slog through mysteries and swing swords all day at lower levels.

I wouldn't necessarily block the PCs from using their powers. But as a DM, I wouldn't block the NPC's powers either... Actually, I hesitate to block spells and PrCs (except those I consider off the limits, which are only a handful spells). So, if the PCs use B-S-T, the NPCs are likely to use it as well. I know, that sounds like the political balance of power: If you don't use your full force, I won't use mine... but IMC, that has worked so far quite well.
Besides, there are more options at high levels to bring down a strong villain than rely simply to B-S-T...

 

[Reynard]

I wouldn't necessarily block the PCs from using their powers. But as a DM, I wouldn't block the NPC's powers either... Actually, I hesitate to block spells and PrCs (except those I consider off the limits, which are only a handful spells). So, if the PCs use B-S-T, the NPCs are likely to use it as well. I know, that sounds like the political balance of power: If you don't use your full force, I won't use mine... but IMC, that has worked so far quite well.
Besides, there are more options at high levels to bring down a strong villain than rely simply to B-S-T...

So, is it B-S-T that you particularly don't like, or generally when players spend time and resources in order to walk through an encounter (as opposed to using those resources in the encounter). For me, it is the latter. When 6 hours of an 8 hour session gets eaten up with gather info/research/buy items/buff/scry/etc -- at the expense of, you know, fun stuff -- and then there's one horribly imbalanced encounter for the last 2 hours -- a "boss fight" that isn't a boss fight any longer, because you can't have a boss fight without some mook fights first -- the game gets really, really unfun for me as a DM.

 

[paradox42]

Since we are all discussing the merits of high level adventures ... we are currently breaking new ground as 6 16th level PCs. My PCs appear far out on what they can take on as opposed to what is supposed to challenge them. Is it normal experience that your PCs can walk through 2 CR 16 nightwalkers, several classed hags (green hag SORC 12, green hag BARB 12, green hag CLC 12, 2 green hag ranger 7 archers, some smaller guys) with only a single casualty? This appears to be an ECL what, 25? encounter? Are my PCs out of control, or is this reasonable?

I haven't finished reading the thread to see if somebody else answered this, but I'm currently running an Epic game (7 characters of levels 30-32) and can attest to the fact that WotC's recommendations for EL start to break down around 15th level or so, particularly in cases where the party size is higher than the "standard" 4. Upper_Krust, who came up with the "Challenging Challenge Ratings" document that made it into Grim Tales as an appendix, arrived at the notion that high-level PCs can in fact take on creatures up to double their party level (in terms of CR at least) with some chance of victory. And more and more, as my PCs get higher, I find this to be true.

The PCs in my Epic game were built using house rules that make for more powerful PCs than standard rules; for years I've assumed a "phantom level adjustment" of +2 when planning encounters for games in this homebrew setting. On top of that, there are 7 PCs (well above the standard of 4), and they're packed with powerful items (the group has quested for, and won, several Major Artifacts including the infamous Codex of the Infinite Planes). This group of 7 PCs recently fought against a CR 68 creature that I deliberately set up in an environment where it couldn't move effectively, and couldn't use all of its abilities to their best effect- and they won, though it nearly killed 5 of the 7 party members (they were saved only due to quick thinking on the part of the party psion who realized at the last second that he could use Damp Power as an immediate action to save everybody) and left both the party's sorceress and her Eidolon without any spell slots above 3rd level. Two party members, even after the psion's quick thinking to reduce the damage of its Death Throes explosion, were in single-digit hit points.

But still- these were 32nd-level characters taking on a CR 68 creature. And they won.

So yes, in your case, seeing 6 16th-level PCs- particularly if they're well-equipped- take on and defeat an EL 25 encounter is something I would not find particularly surprising. If they used up nearly all their resources doing it, aside from the one lost PC, then that's altogether more appropriate and expected.

 

[Bardsandsages]

Running games at that level requires the players really be prepared and be willing to work with the GM. I've often found it's the players that cause most of the problems, as they suddenly have all these spells or cool new powers but don't clearly understand how to use them. So you end up with players trying to do things they aren't really able to do.

I ran a FR campaign from level 1 to level 22. It's an enormous amount of prep work, but it was also very rewarding. At the end, Thay had a new Pharoah (one of the players, no less) and half the Chosen were dead. There was much rejoicing at the table.

As it became apparent that the game was going to reach "epic" proportions, I just put certain rules into play. I think it was around 14th or 15th level:

1. When combat begins, it's "real time". You do not have ten minutes to look at your spell list. You have been playing this character since 1st level. If you don't know your spells by now, you have no business playing a spellcaster. Same for everyone. You don't have ten minutes to decide which feat you are using.
2. I don't check rules at the table. I expect people to know their spells and abilities. If I discover someone used something in a way it can't be used, he gets one warning. If it happens again, the gods strip them of the power. Fortunately, I never actually had to do it. Everyone understood very quickly I did not have time to research their characters for them. I had hordes of NPCs to worry about.
3. Everybody and there brother was summoning help (either summon monster, summon planar ally, or a variant.) This made combat unweildy with all the extra bodies. So we decided that everyone had a specific creaturee they summoned based off of their patron diety and/or their own nature. It would be the same creature that appeared all the time, with a name and stats. But if you summoned it, it got a share of the XP for the encounter. This both insured they only summoned it WHEN IT WAS NEEDED and also allowed the creature to gain levels, thus being useful as the party got more powerful. Players actually became very protective of their summoned friends, and even gave them a share of the treasure (in the case of the planar allies).

So long as the players and the GM are on the same page, you can run a game successfully into epic levels. But if you are running an adversarial style with the players against the GM, it can be about impossible.

 

[Dark Dragon]

So, is it B-S-T that you particularly don't like, or generally when players spend time and resources in order to walk through an encounter (as opposed to using those resources in the encounter). For me, it is the latter. When 6 hours of an 8 hour session gets eaten up with gather info/research/buy items/buff/scry/etc -- at the expense of, you know, fun stuff -- and then there's one horribly imbalanced encounter for the last 2 hours -- a "boss fight" that isn't a boss fight any longer, because you can't have a boss fight without some mook fights first -- the game gets really, really unfun for me as a DM.

I'm no fan of B-S-T. But if the players find a way to use it to full effect, then there are two reasons for it:
1) I (the DM) allowed it to happen. The BBEG is perhaps not the 'real' boss (and the real boss just sits in the back and watches how the PCs act, to learn their tactics, to get rid of his stupid servants, to strike later when some of the PCs spells have expired...). Of course, the session may not be that funny because the players spent some time on preparation. On the other hand, the players can show the full display of their PC's powers, and that may be a funny thing. However, the PCs may learn that their foes are smarter than anticipated. And that may discourage further B-S-T attempts, without negating powers at all.
2) I wasn't aware of all of the PCs powers, items, spells as well as all rules. Then it was my fault, unfunny, but that could happen. But so far, I was lucky.

I think B-S-T is not that difficult to handle, however, I'm not happy that the DM of a high-level campaign has to keep an eye on B-S-T...

 

[dmchucky]

I prefer high level!

I have been DMing for almost 30 years, and I prefer high level (especially Epic Level). As a DM it's very empowering because you can take off the kid gloves so to speak. You don't have to worry about killing most of the party as long as a cleric or rogue with a high UMD are still alive. So restarts are rare. Plus, I love statting out monsters and NPC's, and advancing monsters with HD, templates and class levels. It almost becomes a chess match with the DM versus the players.

As a player, I love the options that are available to you. I prefer to play wizards; and who hasn't looked at the 8th and 9th level spells with a sense of longing. You wonder how many gaming sessions before those mighty magics are at your disposal. It's the beginning of the end game. You are on the other side of that chess match. You map out your levels even more carefully, so you won't have to waste epic feat slots with non-epic feats. You finally see many of your expectations come to fruition. Yeah, the battles last longer; that's the sweet part. You get to feel what real power might feel like. You could become a General, a King or better yet, a godling (oh my....)

To me, what's the point of starting over again at 12th level; things are just starting to get good.

Obviously, this is all my opinion. But my group of 6 players (one of whom is a moderator at ENWorld I might add) seems to dig the high level stuff. We have a gestalt Age of Worms game that we play when we are too many players short or perhaps when we need a break from the high-level stuff (which hasn't happened yet, I might add). Perhaps that is the answer.

Remember, you have to cast maze at least once!

Chuck