Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[S'mon]

Essentially, I got caught not doing my prep. In a high level game, you can't do that. At low levels, you can wing it and have a pretty decent chance of getting it right. High level doesn't have that flexibility. There are just too many variables.

I don't want running a game to be hard work, at any level. High level 1e was easy. High level 3e is tough and challenging to run; I have had very similar experiences to the one you had with the WLD. Although the common alternative high level bad experience of a TPK isn't fun either. Unlike you, I don't see it as a fault with me and my GMing skills, but with the ruleset. Hence I'm using C&C in future, which like 1e does not have much inherent increase in complexity by level, and in which, like 1e, it's not seen as some kind of failed encounter* when the 13th level PCs wipe out the 300 mooks.

*I'm not certain why this is, but I think it's to do with the amount of time 3e takes to set up an encounter, and the implications of the CR/EL system. I recall running 3e ca 13th level, we once took about 4 hours, an entire session, to resolve a battle between the PC party and a force of around 60 low-level Duergar (this was a converted 1e adventure). The battle was vaguely interesting, but took far far too long, and the PCs were never seriously threatened. In 1e the Duergar would all have been dead in a few minutes of real-time and we could have got on with the adventure.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Hussar]

This is why I complained about RC taking me out of context in the other thread. The problem isn't that there is a single throw away encounter, it's that the entire region is WAY under EL'd. Most encounters are at -2 or -3 below the recommended level. It's only the end boss monster that actually fits with the CR.

I didn't read the module closely enough to notice this (I barely read it at all honestly) before running it. Thus, I didn't do my prep and ensure that the encounters were roughly on par with the party. Bad design led to a cakewalk adventure, not bad mechanics.

On the whole time thing, I think it has to do with a group being willing to actually learn the combat rules. I ran an encounter a few sessions ago with 4 mobs, 2 Formian Taskmasters, 1 Formian Myrmarch, a pair of destrachan and a bullette in about an hour. That's nearly 200 opponents and the party consists of 6 PC's as well as a cohort.

Just as a point about the dragon that was mentioned. It's a 12th level adventure and the dragon is CR 14, in an easily accessable location and clearly visible from multiple locations. The party can pretty much dictate the timing of the encounter. An EL +2 encounter isn't all that much more difficult to begin with, and one in which the PC's can prep to their heart's content is just that much easier. Again, it was more a case of poor design, rather than problems with the mechanics.

Running high level 3e is more difficult than low level. I won't argue differently. If you are going to play in high level campaigns, you really can't have casual players. It just doesn't work. Players have to be on the ball and know what their characters can do and the DM has to have a good grasp on mechanics as well. Much more than low level play where the DM can do most of the grunt work for any or all the other players at the table, high level play becomes a group effort.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I recall running 3e ca 13th level, we once took about 4 hours, an entire session, to resolve a battle between the PC party and a force of around 60 low-level Duergar (this was a converted 1e adventure). The battle was vaguely interesting, but took far far too long, and the PCs were never seriously threatened. In 1e the Duergar would all have been dead in a few minutes of real-time and we could have got on with the adventure.

We had fights like this, too. They never took 4 hours real-time. Maybe longer than a few minutes, but I doubt it. Definetly not beyond 10 minutes. A couple of area spells, thinning the herd right there, and after that it's attack rolls. Roll, hit, roll, deal damage. The life expectancy of a mook in these circumstances is a couple of seconds real time.

And that's only when we feel like playing that fight. Usually, things are handwaved "They're just mooks, we don't have to play this. Strike out some fireballs, and a couple of healing spells, that should cover it."

 

[Raven Crowking]

This is why I complained about RC taking me out of context in the other thread. The problem isn't that there is a single throw away encounter, it's that the entire region is WAY under EL'd. Most encounters are at -2 or -3 below the recommended level. It's only the end boss monster that actually fits with the CR.

Which, again, goes back to my response to this.

Your initial quote wasn't "Wow, the suckage of this region" it was "To be honest, this is the first time I've had PC's of these levels and I'm pretty shocked how powerful the group is."

Hence, not out of context at all.

On top of which, it points out just how deeply even designers (who, one assumes, are better than average at this sort of thing) can underestimate the relative power of high level characters in 3.X.

EDIT: OTOH, at least the fights weren't taking 4 hours!

 

[Nebulous]

I think D&D starts getting a little wonky starting at 12th level. Still perfectly fun and doable, but the load of options becomes noticeable. At 13th-15th they keep stacking up, and after 15th i think it is not fun at all. Long combats, too many options, too much power on all sides. Now, some people like that, but it's not for me.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

On top of which, it points out just how deeply even designers (who, one assumes, are better than average at this sort of thing) can underestimate the relative power of high level characters in 3.X.

It just points out that the 'competence' of PCs becomes increasingly variable as the level increases. A packaged dungeon has to shoot for some approximation of average, but the deviation (if you will) of a high-level party is so great that an average high level encounter will still result in a cakewalk for a large number of parties, and a TPK for an equally large number.

I could run the group I used to game with through a high level encounter pretty much by the seat of my pants, because none of them were powergamers or rules lawyers, and they weren't optimized by any stretch of the imagination. If I threw them into your average canned high-level adventure, I doubt they'd survive long at all.

This isn't any different than 1e or 2e (or True20 or C&C, or any other level based game) in concept, only in degree.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This isn't any different than 1e or 2e (or True20 or C&C, or any other level based game) in concept, only in degree.

I certainly agree there.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Can I have one?

If you come to Louisville you can borrow a few of them. My game is only every other saturday so there's a good chance you could cadge some of them for other games.

But you can't keep any of them. Well, maybe the guy who falls a sleep a lot. Wait, no, not even him. He's the one who has no fear when it comes to speaking to scary things, like demons and such. I guess being a 20th level monk with dim door, ethereal jaunt, innate damage reduction, spell resistance, immunity to poisons & disease, and pretty good saves tends to make one confident.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I guess being a 20th level monk with dim door, ethereal jaunt, innate damage reduction, spell resistance, immunity to poisons & disease, and pretty good saves tends to make one confident.

Nah. You never see them picking up chicks.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Never encountered [scry-buff-teleport] either.

The reason that these things are theoretically possible doesn't mean that the players have to use them. Just have a little chat early on: "Hey guys, we want this to be fun, so why don't we agree that noone will use a blind kobold, a bucket of snails, or scry/buff/teleport for everything?"

I cannot agree with this. Scry-buff-teleport isn't the ridiculous rules convolution that the other things you listed are; it's simply sound tactics at high level. Once you know your foe's identity, why *wouldn't* you patiently sit there scrying on him until you get a "lock," then buff up and hit him hard? It might cost a (limited) wish to negate his anti-teleport protections, but it'd probably be worth it. Worse still, nothing stops NPCs from using this tactic against the PCs or their loved ones, which is the real problem, since it makes the PCs' mere survival involve a radical suspension of disbelief.

I've seen s-b-t used as the *exclusive* combat tactic in numerous high-level games even before 3e, until I introduced an increasingly complex set of protections against teleportation... which took it back to an arms race again.

I don't really like the arms race entailed by numerous aspects of high-level play given the RAW. D&D has too many all-or-nothing attacks (and defenses, for that matter) at high levels. Discern location tells you *exactly* where something is. Mind blank *entirely* defeats two entire schools of magic. Heavy fort *completely* negates sneak attack. And so on. A redesign could solve most of these issues, but they are there.