Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[broghammerj]

I hear this a lot of the boards but no one ever seems to want to explain what that actually means.

I won't comment on the breakdown of the game due power creep in social interactions. I do not feel the need to kill the common shopkeeper because I am 15th level and practically indestructable in a small village. From a behavioral standpoint I will assume my character will remain civil even though he is more powerfull. I don't buy this as an area of breakdown if people play logically.

The Here are some random examples off the top of my head that have occured in play:

1. 12th level dwarven ranger can't generate enough damage with dual wielded picks to penetrate high damage resistence. Does a ton of damage per round (equivalent to any melee guy) but not a lot of damage on one attack compared to fighter wielding a great sword. Character became ineffective as he went on as higher DR was encountered

2. Half fiend takes a full round attack from a single PC, including two criticals causing a total of 96 points of damage in one round and dies. Could have been an effective opponent with the use of his spells, summoning minions, etc.

3. Our priest was so tripped out on turning during the AoW campaign that the Harbinger was effectively turned. It required a 20 to roll and happened legitimately. Kind of killed what would have been a great battle.

4. Our sorcerer is battling a aspect of some evil god. Goes five rounds with maxed out spells like lightening bolt, fireball, etc. Can't penetrate spell resistance. Finally does get through to do a whopping 23 points of damage. Repeat same process over and over and get only one combat done in a whole session

5. My psychic adept takes 73 total points of damage in a round and laughs because he has 168 HP. Uses heal next round and is fully restored. Doesn't fear death because he'll just teleport if he's low on HP.

I guess if I could simply sum it up, high level DND combat is an all or nothing phenomenon. The monster has to be so powerful the PCs can't harm it or the PCs are so powerful the monster dies almost instantly. Gone is the whittling away effect of multiple rounds of combat that seems to occur at lower levels.

You're character almost has to be tailored (min/maxed for a better term) to do massive damage at high levels or he almost falls apart. To me this is at the expense of story, rolepalying, etc.

 

[Monstrosity]

The problem I have with high level campaigns is that designing encounters that should challenge the players without killing them is getting harder. I'm getting to the point where the players are so powerful that it takes something with incredible power to threaten them. The players all have huge strengths but also terrible weaknesses, so what might merely scratch one of the characters can kill another character in one round. Last session, one player lost his character in one round by being on the receiving end of 107 points of damage, and then the rest of the party killed the beast in one round.

 

[broghammerj]

The problem I have with high level campaigns is that designing encounters that should challenge the players without killing them is getting harder. I'm getting to the point where the players are so powerful that it takes something with incredible power to threaten them. The players all have huge strengths but also terrible weaknesses, so what might merely scratch one of the characters can kill another character in one round. Last session, one player lost his character in one round by being on the receiving end of 107 points of damage, and then the rest of the party killed the beast in one round.

You just summarized my point very eloquently. What took me half a page took you only a few lines

 

[phindar]

I don't really see the problem with high level spells.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "problem", but it's effectively two different games. Its not a given that different players will like both, or if they do, that they'd want to play the same characters in both games.

The group I play with tends to run one type of game or the other, either playing up from low level and ending the game around 10th, or generating characters at high level and playing up from there. Even so, I don't think we've cracked 15th. Our sweet spot is 3rd-9th.

 

[Quartz]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if you see the problem as being to do with magic - spells, magic items, whatever - do something about it! You're the GM. Don't loke those blasting spells? Well maybe the Elemental planes get further away or ar e being shielded, so they only do 1 HP/level damage or something (this is, of course, also a plot hook). Don't like Teleport? Tell the players it doesn't exist. Etc. Maybe permanent buff magic items cost 10x XP. You're the GM

Maybe I'm missing something, but if you see the problem as being the high damage output of the fighters, take steps. Add extra foes. Put the foes where the PCs can't reach them all at once. Etc. You're the GM.

It's your game.

 

[Rokes]

Plots are harder to pull off. The PC's abilty to gather information skyrockets, and the NPC's ability to gather information (without using cheesy Scry) decreases.

Combat slows down; all those options aren't that great when combat takes four times as long.

Some classes, like the fighter, are a lot less fun to play at high levels.

Almost every group has someone who doesn't know the rules, which is fatal in a high level campaign.

Combat changes so much it's hard for many GMs to challenge the PCs (especially if they're all rules-competent). Combat can often get "swingy" as well, with lots of over-the-top PC-killing and lots of wimpy encounters with nothing in between

Making matters worse, the ridiculous 4 encounters per day system breaks down even further at high levels. Spellcasters aren't going to run out if they're doing something other than direct damage, and in some campaigns the PCs can just take a nap anytime they want.

High level NPCs take longer to design, and are (comparatively) weaker, especially if they're not a spellcaster.

QFT. I've never heard it explained better.

 

[Crothian]

You're character almost has to be tailored (min/maxed for a better term) to do massive damage at high levels or he almost falls apart. To me this is at the expense of story, rolepalying, etc.

I haven't seen this at all. First the only way people don't role play is when they don't role play. Min maxing has nothing to do with it. There are min maxers that role play and some that don't but I never say the two as related. And It also seems that there is a middle ground between worthless and uber in fact its all I've seen. I'm not going to pick apart specific examples but just because a few dice rolls get lucky doesn't mean high level play is that way. Luck happens at all levels.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm not convinced more people don't play 13+ level games.

I might say that most ENWorlders don't play 13+ level games, but is this really true of the D&D playing population at large?

 

[broghammerj]

I haven't seen this at all. First the only way people don't role play is when they don't role play. Min maxing has nothing to do with it. There are min maxers that role play and some that don't but I never say the two as related. And It also seems that there is a middle ground between worthless and uber in fact its all I've seen. I'm not going to pick apart specific examples but just because a few dice rolls get lucky doesn't mean high level play is that way. Luck happens at all levels.

Maybe I shouldn't have used roleplaying. You're correct that min/maxing and roleplaying aren't related. Character conept is probably a better choice of words. My dwarven miner stated above had +3 enchantments on both his picks which began to become useless compared to the barbarian with the two handed sword. I could never beat damage reduction. Try a whip specialist at 15th level....good luck with a dragon.

My examples weren't meant to show off lucky roles but present what seems to be happening frequently now that we're at higher levels. They die or we die.

 

[Crothian]

I might say that most ENWorlders don't play 13+ level games, but is this really true of the D&D playing population at large?

Talking to locals at gaming stores and at conventions it seems to be that way. More people play high level now then in early editions but the impressions I get is still that people play low levels more then high.