Why DON'T people like guns in D&D?

Me, I like guns in my D&D - my homebrew is set in a quasi Reformation/Counter-Reformation period. I started reading fantasy in the 1960s, and much that I read was not pseudo mediaeval. Heck, some of the Grimm's brothers stories mention guns, as does some of Tolkien. Stone Soup, the King's Dragoon, and yes, Solomon Kane and John Carter.

As to the 'why nots'... I think much of it is unfamiliarity with antique handguns.

Some folks seem to think that guns are all powerful and ignore armor - they don't. Crossbows were actually better at piercing armor.

Some folks think that they are slow - they are, but heavy crossbows were slower. A cranquin is slow and cumbersome, making the arbalest slower than a arquebus.

Some folks think that they are hard to learn - they are easier to master than a longbow, but harder than a crossbow. (If any of the three should be an exotic weapon it is the longbow - if you want to train a longbowman start with the grandfather....)

Pricier than a crossbow, cheaper than a well made longbow (which was pretty much out of the game by the time the handgun became a primary weapon), the firing mechanism was often made by the same folks who made the locks for doors.

They did do an awful amount of damage, not so much breaking bone as pulverizing it. Big, fat, slow, soft lead are excellent at transmitting energy - which is also why armor was also good at stopping it. A suit of good armor might be 'proofed' - bearing a nice dent where the armorer took ten steps away from the armor then shot it with a pistol. (Source of the term 'bullet proofed'. :) )

So I give them good damage (D10) a good critical modifier (X3) but do not fiddle with the chance of critical, and give them poor ranges. (Both the crossbow and the longbow could outrange an arquebus.)

And they are very susceptible to damp - especially matchlocks. No firing in the rain, no going swimming with your weapon loaded.... And a matchlock has a limited time that it can be held 'ready' whether you are firing or not the match is burning, and to keep it burning it is spun in a circle - it is easy to see what weapon is being used.

Wheellocks can hold fire for a long time, but are bloody expensive - used much more often for pistols than for handguns. As for reliable... not so much - the springs were subject to corrosion and over winding, and sometimes the sparks just didn't hit the pan right if the lock had been knocked askew. And sometimes it just took a while, with the shooter holding the trigger until a spark reached the pan. (Whirrrrrr *BANG!* was better than just Whirrrrr....)
Made by jewelers and locksmiths the wheellock was very expensive.

The whole game changes when the flintlock is invented... cheap, reliable, and able to hold fire. It was just plain better than the wheellock. I have fired a Brown Bess (Land Pattern Musket) that was in active service for a hundred years, first in the British infantry, then cut down to carbine length and its muzzle flared for use by the Navy, then traded to Spain and eventually ending up in Mexico. And the gun still fired just fine. (How much of the gun, aside from the stock, had actually lasted a century of service is anybody's guess.)

A Land Pattern Musket would misfire on the average of one out of sixteen shots under battlefield conditions.

One of the oddities of the Brown Bess - because so very many of them were made it is often possible to buy an original for less money than to purchase a replica.... :)

The Auld Grump
 

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IMO, the reason fantasy appeals to people is that it emphasizes individual empowerment. (Yes, there is wish-fulfillment going on too, but there's wish-fulfillment in every genre.) We live in a world where it's very easy to feel powerless, insignificant, and ignored. Fantasy fiction envisions a world where the actions of the individual matter to the world at large--where a Frodo Baggins or a Harry Potter can, through virtue and steadfastness, turn the course of history... and where, through ruthlessness and cunning, a Sauron or a Voldemort can do the same.

Guns are part and parcel of the modern world--the chosen weapon of the mechanized, bureaucratic, impersonal warfare of today. They bring those associations with them when imported into a fantasy setting, which is why many people are reluctant to admit them, even if the setting is one in which they would legitimately fit (late medieval/early Renaissance).
Couldn't -- and didn't -- say it better myself.
 

Firearms weren't the death of knights, pikes, other better establish polearms, and better coordination with tactical responses to charges were. And for that matter, firearms weren't the death of plate mail - on the contrary, the kind of "full plate" that D&D has were made explicitly to deal with firearms. The technology that made that plate mail is banned, but the plate itself is fine? Yeah, ok

Instead of responding to different opinions rudely and with dripping sarcasm, you should at least try to understand things from the historical perspective.

I never said pikes were removed, or that everything changed all at once. And I never made mention of Full Plate at all.

Early Modern warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But firearms did end up eliminating the calvary and the middle-ages knight. It did change a lot of things. It might have been slow but it did impact things enough to do this.

D&D does not, and has never, adhered to any sort of historical accuracy. It created it's own tropes and then ran headlong into them until they became permanent.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind that the origins came from Wargaming, and wargames did try to keep things as historically realistic as possible--they were what has come to be termed in the modern age as "simulationist". In fact the rise of these alternate steampunk settings tell me that a lot of creators are lazy and haven't studied history as much as they should have, and seen how the gun changed things.

To me, if people want to use the D&D ruleset for guns, that's fine, but I want to see a well thought out campaign world that either takes into account what would happen if guns existed and how the society would change, or I'd rather go with the "Gygaxian Naturalism" default, where gunpowder won't work and is unstable on that world. I don't want to see lazy "let's mix guns into our setting and have the guns not affect anything else".
 


My perspective on this was formed in the way 1e handled bows. Basically, a 10th level fighter (say with 70hp) could stand there all day and let people shoot him with a bow (pre-str bow days - 3 hps of damage per hit - yawn). One could use the HP analogy of skill, grit, luck in melee combat. But it just was a farse from a bow perspective (keep in mind this is pre-Matrix there kiddies - standing in the open dodging arrows seem silly). So Ok, one can except it - its a game, not a combat simulator. But trying to add in guns on top of that just made it worse. In gun combat, cover is important (well, except vs. the A-Team and vs. "precise" Imperial Troopers). In D&D, cover vs. ranged is an afterthought until you started to get to 3.x. It just never made sense to me and that is my prejudice.

BUT, systems that treat bows and firearms "better" (I will not say realistically) changes my mind on the subject. I have coverted to Savage Worlds recently and they handle range weapons differently -- your ability to hit the target has nothing to do with the targets skill -- you cannot dodge the projectile. You can take cover or wear armor to try and absorb the damage. That run-of-the-mill archer/gunman will hit you regardless of how awesome you are - better find cover! That is satisifying to me and that opens up guns in fantasy (I run Eberron, so some form of gun would not be out of place in that setting given all the other advancements during the War).

I am not that familiar with other systems - but if cover is important for range weapons, then guns can be added so long as the game world can absorb the concept in my opinion.
 


YSince this is a thread asking for why people don't like guns in D&D - which undoubtedly relies 100% upon peoples perceptions - how are anybody's perceptions in this thread "Bunk" or "Bull"?:hmm: Innacurate when compared to reality, most likely, but still opinions and perceptions - something of which nobody should have the right to denigrate. Disagree with: Yes - Denigrate: No

Because they're claiming they want historical accuracy when it comes to guns.

"If we add guns, it's not fantasy anymore, you might as well add rifles and remove all knights!"

"If you have guns, they have to be realistically portrayed, with long load times, and lots of negative modifiers."

"If guns are invented, the entire system would have to be altered around their usage!"

Nevermind that we have mobile artillery platforms, air to air and air to ground combat, massive biological warfare, and instant healing from magic.

Guys, guns would change everything!

That's why the opinion is bunk. You already have magic. You have wizards that can fly through the air, throw down a single cloudkill, and murder an entire army. And yet guns will take it too far?
 

To me, if people want to use the D&D ruleset for guns, that's fine, but I want to see a well thought out campaign world that either takes into account what would happen if guns existed and how the society would change, or I'd rather go with the "Gygaxian Naturalism" default, where gunpowder won't work and is unstable on that world. I don't want to see lazy "let's mix guns into our setting and have the guns not affect anything else".

Unless of course your campaign setting is set in a time before they became prevalent. Sure they will change society over time, but it hasn't happened YET...
 

I know

...There...were guns in the Renaissance :|

I know.

When I said, I stop at the Rennaissance - I meant I stop before entering the Rennaissance, because that's too modern for my tastes. Guns were definitely available during that era.

And while I agree that D&D doesn't necessarily fall into medieval only - as you say it falls all over the place historically, I am a setting author/creator for publication and while those settings are fantasy realms, they very closely work with real world historical times/locations. One is Kaidan, which is based entirely on a Japan-like world at the end of the 12th century. The new one I'm working on is pre-Roman northern Britain (like) with a Pict setting.

While D&D jumps all over the place, I don't.

GP
 
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In fact the rise of these alternate steampunk settings tell me that a lot of creators are lazy and haven't studied history as much as they should have, and seen how the gun changed things.
Or they have, and have just decided they like things the other way and are willing to ignore realism in favor of their preferred fun.

Which is something that should always be considered when evaluating any breach of historical accuracy.
 

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