D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[mrpopstar]

Don't the DnD Basic Rules that are free on-line essentially not have sub-classes (since they have only one for each class)?

"I'd like a dozen donuts, none with sprinkles."
"Take this box of four donuts with sprinkles, which is basically what you want because there's only four."

If a lot of players like the extra complexity it feels odd to me to make them buy a 4th book to get it, when there is a less complex version available for free.

Okay, include the subclasses, just make them optional.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Don't the DnD Basic Rules that are free on-line essentially not have sub-classes (since they have only one for each class)?

Even with built-in archetypes, there's still a ''shiny new thing'' at each level. If you dump the archetypes, the class itself looks more frontloaded and it removes a lot of the ''I have to wait to Xth level to gain that shiny new thing''.

But its pretty much a question of preference. Complexity and meaningful character options arent a ''yes/no'' decision, its more of a spectrum.

 

[overgeeked]

What do you mean by illusion of choice? That weapons and armors aren't all that different?

Not the person you asked, but I agree with their assessment.

Weapons and armor tend to present an illusion of choice because there simply is one best option. You want a melee finesse weapon, the rapier is the best. If you’re restricted to light armor, studded leather is the best option. If there are singular best choices, there’s not really an option. Hence an illusion of choice.

To me, the fix is simple and obvious. Make weapon damage based on hit dice. No matter what weapon the character wields, they deal damage equal to their hit dice. Done. A barbarian is going to do more damage with a spoon than a wizard is with a greataxe. And not just from their STR bonus.

I do agree that class abilities and spells reduce some of the more obvious challenges of exploration, but many of those challenges would be wholly unsatisfying ends as a heroic character.

It's the journey not the destination. The journey itself can be fun and entertaining. It shouldn't be trivial to skip over. If you don't like the possibility of losing a character why are you playing a game where it's a possibility?

 

[jmartkdr2]

Not the person you asked, but I agree with their assessment.

Weapons and armor tend to present an illusion of choice because there simply is one best option. You want a melee finesse weapon, the rapier is the best. If you’re restricted to light armor, studded leather is the best option. If there are singular best choices, there’s not really an option. Hence an illusion of choice.

Or, when there are choices, they don't actually mean anything. A sword-and-board paladin could use an axe or morningstar or pick or warhammer... - but you're still doing 1d8+str damage. The choice doesn't change anything that matters (because slashing v piercing almost never matters). So it looks like a choice, but really isn't.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Not the person you asked, but I agree with their assessment.

Weapons and armor tend to present an illusion of choice because there simply is one best option. You want a melee finesse weapon, the rapier is the best. If you’re restricted to light armor, studded leather is the best option. If there are singular best choices, there’s not really an option. Hence an illusion of choice.

That's why I prefer a system where the damage or armor are similar, but different weapon have different traits.

To keep it brief, you could use the special Crit effects from the new Slasher/Piercer/Crusher feats from Tasha's, making a simple yet useful distinction between a longsword and battle-ax.

Give ranged weapons different ranges that actually mean something in battle, not handwavy 600 ft ranges! Give a short bow a short range or 30' and long range of 60', make it light, so a character using a short bow can use its bonus action to make a second attack (just like dual wielding light blades). Give longbows 1d10 damage with better range, but they are heavy.

Same for armors:
Give me a light armor with AC of 12 and one with only 11 AC, but protection from extreme cold or such.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If 5e is any further simplified it will start causing problems in the game. This is already showing in areas such as weapons/armour and exploration. A streamlined game is good an over simplified game is not.

As others have said earlier in the thread, "simplifying" is not a universal thing. Some pretty complex stuff has been kept in 5e because it is the "resurrect the sacred cows" edition. Other things have, as you say, been simplified perhaps too far already.

Of course, there are suggestions one could make for how to identify and address these concerns, but people aren't particularly keen on treating game design as a technical discipline amenable to scientific analysis, rather than a free-flowing art form that can only be explained by talent and genius.

 

[mrpopstar]

Not the person you asked, but I agree with their assessment.

Weapons and armor tend to present an illusion of choice because there simply is one best option. You want a melee finesse weapon, the rapier is the best. If you’re restricted to light armor, studded leather is the best option. If there are singular best choices, there’s not really an option. Hence an illusion of choice.

Thank you for explaining! Makes sense.

To me, the fix is simple and obvious. Make weapon damage based on hit dice. No matter what weapon the character wields, they deal damage equal to their hit dice. Done. Your barbarian is going to do more with a spoon than a wizard. And not just from their STR bonus.

I LOVE THIS!

It's the journey not the destination. The journey itself can be fun and entertaining. It shouldn't be trivial to skip over. If you don't like the possibility of losing a character why are you playing a game where it's a possibility?

I mean, yes, I wholeheartedly agree as the exploration pillar is my favorite pillar, but I do understand why the game presents the opportunities it presents to the various classes in overcoming the challenges of exploration.

For example: Do I wish clerics weren't able to pray a feast into existence so that dehydration and starvation were serious concerns for longer? Absolutely! But I appreciate the compromise of not being able to solve the problem with a ritual, requiring they make a sacrifice in order to be the solution.

 

[overgeeked]

Thank you for explaining! Makes sense.

Sure. Jmartkdr2 expanded on it a bit with their post. If there are no meaningful differences between choices, there's no real choice. Again the illusion of choice.

I LOVE THIS!

Cool. I didn't do it. It's from Dungeon World. It might be older, but that's where I came across it first.

I mean, yes, I wholeheartedly agree as the exploration pillar is my favorite pillar, but I do understand why the game presents the opportunities it presents to the various classes in overcoming the challenges of exploration.

For example: Do I wish clerics weren't able to pray a feast into existence so that dehydration and starvation were serious concerns for longer? Absolutely! But I appreciate the compromise of not being able to solve the problem with a ritual, requiring they make a sacrifice in order to be the solution.

I don't really see it as a compromise. It's a trivially easy skip button. It's the same illusion of choice you have with the weapons and armor. It's simply better, easier, faster, and less risky to skip large chunks of the exploration pillar...therefore the vast majority of players do. So it's not really a compromise. It's more like window dressing to appease older fans. Sure, the exploration stuff is technically there. But it's so trivial to skip it, and basically everyone does, so it might as well not even be there. Unless the DM house rules certain features, backgrounds, or spells out of the game.

 

[CleverNickName]

To me, the fix is simple and obvious. Make weapon damage based on hit dice. No matter what weapon the character wields, they deal damage equal to their hit dice. Done. A barbarian is going to do more damage with a spoon than a wizard is with a greataxe. And not just from their STR bonus.

I know that a couple of other RPGs do this, and it seems to work okay. (I'm trying to think of one in particular that uses a stat called Attack Power, which is a particular die type... for knights it is a d10 for lances, a d8 for swords, and a d6 for all other weapon shapes. The assassin gets d10 Attack Power for daggers, but d6 for all others. And so on. I just wish I could remember ther name of that game system.)

Not everyone's cup of tea, for sure, but I've seen it (or something like it) done before.

 

[mrpopstar]

I don't really see it as a compromise. It's a trivially easy skip button. It's the same illusion of choice you have with the weapons and armor. It's simply better, easier, faster, and less risky to skip large chunks of the exploration pillar...therefore the vast majority of players do. So it's not really a compromise. It's more like window dressing to appease older fans. Sure, the exploration stuff is technically there. But it's so trivial to skip it, and basically everyone does, so it might as well not even be there. Unless the DM house rules certain features, backgrounds, or spells out of the game.

It hasn't been my experience that the challenges of the exploration pillar are trivialized to the extent of easy skips. Water, especially, is pressing in dungeon environments, as are light sources. And I lean heavily into weather and wilderness hazards.

It all depends on how you intentionally design with party makeup in mind.