D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[overgeeked]

It hasn't been my experience that the challenges of the exploration pillar are trivialized to the extent of easy skips. Water, especially, is pressing in dungeon environments, as are light sources. And I lean heavily into weather and wilderness hazards.

It all depends on how you intentionally design with party makeup in mind.

In my experience it’s almost the reverse of that. If the DM says they’re going to make exploration important, the players pick all the skip buttons. If the DM doesn’t make it clear exploration is important the players don’t bother wasting resources assuming the DM will simply skip exploration. When exploration comes up, the players complain...then pick all the skip buttons they can.

Players don’t want to bother tracking food and water, so they take the skip buttons. Players don’t want to bother tracking torches or light sources so they take the skip buttons. Gods forbid you as the DM remind them how darkvision actually works (disadvantage on Perception checks in total darkness). Then they complain some more and pull out the skip buttons for that, too. There’s not really anything in the exploration pillar that doesn’t have a skip button. It’s really too bad.

 

[Vael]

It's weird to me that most of the examples given here to simplify 5e are primarily stripping out choices in character customization, which, to me, is one of 5e's selling points and hits a, IMO, a pretty reasonable amount of complexity.

The only sticking point I have is the cross-referencing. Consider Skill Proficiencies. Each choice you make in character gen can interact with that. Should I take proficiency in Perception from choosing Rogue? Oh, no, I'm an Elf, I already get that. Or was it from my background? Sure, software can manage it, but if I were sitting down with a PHB and a blank character sheet, here's where I get annoyed. If I were to simplify 5e, here's something I'd just take out. Go to narrative proficiencies, like 13th Age, it's already an option in the DMG. I'm proficient in the things a Noble Elf Rogue would be and leave it at that. I don't think it's the number of choices a player has to make, it's that one choice interacts with a previous choice. Lineage/Class/Background almost need to be more ... siloed so that they aren't interacting with each other more. Swapping Elf for Half-Orc should be more seemless and not interacting with Class and Background.

Most of the other simplifications I'd make to 5e are more along the line of cleaning up some rules interactions and simplifying them. Two-Weapon Fighting, the difference between attack types that have already been mentionned, maybe remove a few conditions (probably make a generic "Disadvantaged" condition and take out the more niche ones), and clean up spells. Spell write-ups should have saving throws in their summary, not buried in their rules description, I like going to more generic/standardized ranges, etc.

And finally ... I would spend more time cleaning up the DM's side of the game. 4e Monster statblocks were a revelation, 5e was a step back. CR is kinda BS, 4e combat encounter generation was a dream, X Yth level PCs are an even match for X Yth level Monsters. I miss it. You can along get pretty well with "Rulings Not Rules", but that does mean it feels sometimes that the DM is flying solo. So more aids for DMs and reduce the amount of workload they have to manage.

 

[mrpopstar]

In my experience it’s almost the reverse of that. If the DM says they’re going to make exploration important, the players pick all the skip buttons. If the DM doesn’t make it clear exploration is important the players don’t bother wasting resources assuming the DM will simply skip exploration. When exploration comes up, the players complain...then pick all the skip buttons they can.

Players don’t want to bother tracking food and water, so they take the skip buttons. Players don’t want to bother tracking torches or light sources so they take the skip buttons. Gods forbid you as the DM remind them how darkvision actually works (disadvantage on Perception checks in total darkness). Then they complain some more and pull out the skip buttons for that, too. There’s not really anything in the exploration pillar that doesn’t have a skip button. It’s really too bad.

I'm sorry you have to play with those guys. They sound awful.

 

[overgeeked]

I'm sorry you have to play with those guys. They sound awful.

That's literally every group of D&D players I've ever played with. From '84 until today. Several thousand hours of play across decades and several hundred different players in all kinds of contexts. Either I'm incredibly unlucky or that's just how lots and lots of people play D&D.

 

[Greg K]

Yeah, I think 5E is already fairly simple. Or maybe a better way to say it is that it's as complicated as you want it to be.

If you want a seriously simple, stripped-down game that is reminiscent of the old BECM days of yore, just use the Player's Handbook only and do not use optional rules (especially the Playing on a Grid, Feats, and Multiclassing options.)

I disagree. If you want a simpler, stripped-down game download the free basic rules from the WOTC website (If going for more old school B/X and BE).
Basic Rules for Dungeons & Dragons | Dungeons & Dragons

You get:
Races: Dwarf (Hill), Elf (High), Halfling (Lightfoot), Human
Classes: Cleric (Life Domain), Fighter (Champion), Rogue (Thief), Wizard (School of Evocation)
Backgrounds: Acolyte, Criminal, Folk Hero, Noble, Sage, Soldier

For more races and/or classes, download the free SRD from the WOTC website (and ignoring the Dragonborn, Tiefling, Sorcerer, and Warlock gives one the AD&D selection of races and classes).
Additional races: Dragonborn, Gnome (Rock), Half-Elf, Half-Orc, TIefling
Additional classes: Barbarian (Berserker), Bard (Lore), Druid (Land), Monk (Open Hand), Paladin (Devotion), Ranger (Hunter), Sorcerer (Draconic), Warlock (Fiend)

 

[mrpopstar]

That's literally every group of D&D players I've ever played with. From '84 until today. Several thousand hours of play across decades and several hundred different players in all kinds of contexts.

I can honestly say that I've never experienced anything like that beyond a few grumbles in public play settings.

I'm sure it has a lot to do with how the exploration pillar is handled by the Dungeon Master. If rations, torches, and ammunition never matter until all of a sudden they do, I'm sure that stinks as a player (which is what I chalked the grumbles in public play settings up to).

 

[GMMichael]

For example, this neat simple solution runs into problems as soon as you have a mount that can think and act on its own--which is not at all unusual in D&D. If you jump on the back of a dragon, does it lose all free will and become a passive vehicle as long as you can claim to be "mounted?" If not, what's the dividing line between a "mount" and a "creature whose back you happen to be on?" Follow this logic and you end up with the "controlled versus independent" distinction.

And then there's the question of multiple riders. Suppose you and I both mount the same horse? On your turn, you move 60 feet (the horse's speed). On my turn, I move another 60 feet. Having two riders makes the horse twice as fast. Crowd four halflings on the horse's back and it can go like a Formula 1 racer. Obviously, this makes no sense--only one of us can actually be the "rider" in control of the horse, everyone else is just a passenger. So now your clean simple rule has developed another nasty complication, where you have to distinguish "mount as the rider" from "mount as a passenger."

Next up, what about terrain hazards? If you gallop into caltrops, who takes damage, you or the horse? By your rule, it's you--you're the one moving. So there needs to be a clause about terrain hazards affecting the mount. What happens if you move into a space that you can fit into but your mount can't? Nothing in your rule as written would prevent this. So you have to add another clause that the rider's size changes to match the mount's, which has assorted side effects (e.g., grappling).

As the weirdnesses keep piling up, it quickly becomes simpler to reframe the whole thing in a way that matches the fiction: The mount is the one doing the moving. If independent, it acts on its own turn. If "controlled," it acts on the turn of whoever is controlling it.

And, just like that, you've arrived at 5E's mounted combat rules.

Let's reflect on the D&D Next design philosophy: rulings, not rules. Most of the questions you pose above are easily resolved with rulings.

 

[Aldarc]

I can honestly say that I've never experienced anything like that beyond a few grumbles in public play settings.

I'm sure it has a lot to do with how the exploration pillar is handled by the Dungeon Master. If rations, torches, and ammunition never matter until all of a sudden they do, I'm sure that stinks as a player (which is what I chalked the grumbles in public play settings up to).

Black Hack uses a Usage Die. Your ammo may start at d20. After every use, you roll the die. If you roll a 1-2 then the Usage Die downgrades: e.g., d20 -> d12 -> d10 -> d8 -> d6 -> d4 -> out. This works pretty well with things like ammo, torches, food, etc. without forcing players to track the minutiae of these things while still having a bit of tension with supplies.

It's weird to me that most of the examples given here to simplify 5e are primarily stripping out choices in character customization, which, to me, is one of 5e's selling points and hits a, IMO, a pretty reasonable amount of complexity.

The only sticking point I have is the cross-referencing. Consider Skill Proficiencies. Each choice you make in character gen can interact with that. Should I take proficiency in Perception from choosing Rogue? Oh, no, I'm an Elf, I already get that. Or was it from my background? Sure, software can manage it, but if I were sitting down with a PHB and a blank character sheet, here's where I get annoyed. If I were to simplify 5e, here's something I'd just take out. Go to narrative proficiencies, like 13th Age, it's already an option in the DMG. I'm proficient in the things a Noble Elf Rogue would be and leave it at that. I don't think it's the number of choices a player has to make, it's that one choice interacts with a previous choice. Lineage/Class/Background almost need to be more ... siloed so that they aren't interacting with each other more. Swapping Elf for Half-Orc should be more seemless and not interacting with Class and Background.

Most of the other simplifications I'd make to 5e are more along the line of cleaning up some rules interactions and simplifying them. Two-Weapon Fighting, the difference between attack types that have already been mentionned, maybe remove a few conditions (probably make a generic "Disadvantaged" condition and take out the more niche ones), and clean up spells. Spell write-ups should have saving throws in their summary, not buried in their rules description, I like going to more generic/standardized ranges, etc.

Yeah, one of the BIGGEST hurdles of cross-referencing for new players is definitely with spells.

IMHO, some of the simplifications that I think that would help new players would be things like getting rid of the attribute in favor of just the modifier. If people want to roll for attributes, Fantasy Age - which basically replaces the usual attributes for modifiers alone - shows that you can still roll for attributes.

And finally ... I would spend more time cleaning up the DM's side of the game. 4e Monster statblocks were a revelation, 5e was a step back. CR is kinda BS, 4e combat encounter generation was a dream, X Yth level PCs are an even match for X Yth level Monsters. I miss it. You can along get pretty well with "Rulings Not Rules", but that does mean it feels sometimes that the DM is flying solo. So more aids for DMs and reduce the amount of workload they have to manage.

Agreed.

I would also consider constructing character sheets more like PbtA playbooks such that players have everything they need there with even less cross-referencing.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I know that a couple of other RPGs do this, and it seems to work okay. (I'm trying to think of one in particular that uses a stat called Attack Power, which is a particular die type... for knights it is a d10 for lances, a d8 for swords, and a d6 for all other weapon shapes. The assassin gets d10 Attack Power for daggers, but d6 for all others. And so on. I just wish I could remember ther name of that game system.)

Not everyone's cup of tea, for sure, but I've seen it (or something like it) done before.

13th Age has a less extreme version of this idea.

 

[mrpopstar]

Black Hack uses a Usage Die. Your ammo may start at d20. After every use, you roll the die. If you roll a 1-2 then the Usage Die downgrades: e.g., d20 -> d12 -> d10 -> d8 -> d6 -> d4 -> out. This works pretty well with things like ammo, torches, food, etc. without forcing players to track the minutiae of these things while still having a bit of tension with supplies.

Interesting.