Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

[Wulf Ratbane]

I was buying non-WoTC products in the beggining of d20, but the quality of 3rd party products has turned me off.

The quality range of every WoTC product I purchased was in the 80-99% quality rating based on my tastes. The quality range of 3rd party stuff has been in the range of 0-95%.

A lot has changed in two years.

Much of the talent from WOTC is now out there working for 3rd parties. I don't just mean the big names-- Monte Cook, Sean Reynolds, Chris Pramas, etc.-- but lots of lesser known but still VERY talented folks, who are now working either directly for (or freelancing with) the 3rd parties: writers, editors, graphic designers, cartographers, etc.

As the "big names" left WOTC to form their own companies, they kept many of the contacts they had on the inside and now bring almost exactly the same quality to the table that WOTC does, at least in terms of technical presentation.

In fact, since the departure of many of those big names, I would say there is more creative talent outside WOTC than within, at this point.

Wulf

 

[Synicism]

I was buying non-WoTC products in the beggining of d20, but the quality of 3rd party products has turned me off.

I will grant you that there were some really crappy books that came out early on. But WotC released its share of them too. Anyone remember the Hero Builder's Guidebook?

The trend has been for the d20 publishers to put out better and better stuff, while I feel that WotC's books, while mostly good, have been declining in quality.

Examples: Deities and Demigods - OK, it's neat and all, but frankly, for divine powers, they're pathetic. WotC should have waited until AFTER the release of the ELH, then released D&dG with full use of the ELH rules and new rules to make them really godlike in power.

Silver Marches - have the developers at WotC stopped reading their own rules? This book has some of the worst designed prestige classes and other bits of cheese I have ever seen. And people wonder why I can't stand the FR.

d20 Modern - had so much promise. Now with what I've been hearing about it, why bother? It sounds like just D&D all over again. Stick with Spycraft.

And so on and so forth. Brand loyalty is petty much meaningless these days. It's hard to tell what's good and what's not just by looking at the publisher. The only way to really be sure is to crack the book open and take a look at the inside.

 

[Phoenix_Knightwind]

I make out a monthly, or quarterly wish list and give it to my GS owner. Since my wish list is based on on-line research and good WoM, he brings it in for me and usualy brings in two or three extras of even the more esoteric items. In this way, my local store has expanded to carrying almost all of the d20 stuff.

 

[Melan]

I, personally, don't buy Wizards material anymore. I have found a niche I like more (Necromancer Games, some Sword&Sorcery and TLG), and they put out enough stuff to meet my needs. I am sure WotC has good stuff, I just don't need them - basically, I want modules, which they aren't too good at.

Likewise, the ex-WotC staffers leave me cold, although I recognise their talent.

 

[der_kluge]

It wasn't different enough from the info in the PHB to be worth the price, basically. Normally I don't buy something without even so much as looking through it, but this time I did. (The store had it shrinkwrapped, and there hadn't been any reviews posted that I could find.) If I'd been able to look through it first, I wouldn't have bought it.

I imagine that for it's intended audience, it's a fine product; but I was looking for something a little further removed from standard D&D. I've already got a PHB, I don't need another one that is just a variation on the theme.

-The Gneech

That's interesting. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it - exactly.

 

[SSS-Druid]

6 - Okay Quality, well written minimum of errors and if they are there make them unimportant ones. DON'T miss label maps. Make sure everything you need to run an adventure is there or point to where it is. (One thing I hate about Scarred Lands is when they give Prestige Class / Magic Item / Feat to NPC's but the thing isn't in that book and they don't mention where to find it.) Good binding, and a solid cover.

As an aside, I am a psychopathic, ravening ogre when it comes to this stuff. I refuse to include non-Core Rulebook things in products I develop without reprinting the relevant material (when feasible) or including a reference (when dealing with major things such as prestige classes and the like).

We're getting better. I promise.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I will grant you that there were some really crappy books that came out early on. But WotC released its share of them too. Anyone remember the Hero Builder's Guidebook?

This was billed as a book for newbies. I am not a newbie (played since Basic D&D), so I did not buy this. A book is not crappy just because YOU don't need it. I heard good things from newbies that appreciated this book very much.

The trend has been for the d20 publishers to put out better and better stuff, while I feel that WotC's books, while mostly good, have been declining in quality.

A difference of opinion, which is what the original question called for. I have a high use level and enjoyment level in ALL of the WoTC 3E D&D books I have purchased. I have not had the same experience with 3rd party stuff. I prefer a safe bet.

Examples: Deities and Demigods

Had no use for it, didn't buy it. I have a little house rule called "Don't even try to fight a true god. You WILL lose." Why would I need this book then. I am a discriminating shopper, I don't buy every book with the WoTC stamp.

Silver Marches

IMO FR has always been and will always be cheese. I don't use it and will never buy this book either. I question your sanity if you bought this book having told me that you dislike the realms. If you didn't buy it, then you should have no complaints, it is what you expected it to be.

d20 Modern

I have no use for Spycraft, d20 Modern, etc. I play D&D, so yet again a product I will never buy.

And so on and so forth. Brand loyalty is petty much meaningless these days. It's hard to tell what's good and what's not just by looking at the publisher. The only way to really be sure is to crack the book open and take a look at the inside.

And so on includes all the books I did buy and liked....PHB, DMG, MM, the 8 adventure path modules, the 5 "splat" books, Living Greyhawk Gazeteer (or Journal, the thick one), and Dungeon Magazine. All great books/mags/mods with useful or fun content.

My main purchase trend is adventures. The 3rd party adventures have ranged from very good (95% rating) to absolute crap (0% - usually those travel brochure-sized adventures). All the books I mentioned above I rate at 80-99%. My money is with WoTC unless the products I continue to buy from them slip down to the levels of the 3rd party stuff. I'm sorry that a bunch of companies have flooded the market with crap, it makes it difficult (and costly) to find the gems. And I'm not one that likes to wade through crap.

Originally posted by Wulf Ratbane
A lot has changed in two years.

Not the quality of products I have purchased from WoTC. People on these very boards admit that to find the quality 3rd party stuff you have to read the reviews. I have neither the time or desire to do such.

Originally posted by jmucchiello
I wouldn't judge the quality of today's d20 publishers against the stuff that came out two years ago. Most of them didn't know what they were doing back then. Do you dismiss new stuff out of hand or do you still look at it and declare it junk?

I don't have time to sort the junk from the good. Third party publications have flooded the market so much that it would be impossible to seek out reviews on each and every one. So I go with the products that have been reliable for the past two years. If they fail to continue being reliable then I may look elsewhere. I am not a programmed WoTC zombie as others here may think.

 

[Garmorn]

Well, I can only speak from personal experience, but generally, up until recently, WotC stuff has outnumbered non-WotC stuff because I was still buying the "core" of the system.

Here's what I own from WotC (excluding subsidiaries like AEG and licensees like Kenzer):

Player's Handbook
Psionics Handbook
Epic Level Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Manual of the Planes
Monster Manual
Deities and Demigods
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Sword & Fist
Defenders of the Faith
Tome and Blood
Song and Silence
Master of the Wild
Magic of Faerun
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer



I guess the point is that WotC stuff has been, until lately, the foundation on which our games have been built. Now that WotC has pretty much published everything I might conceivably buy from them, it's time to complete my collection with better-written stuff from 3rd parties.

Sniped for Brevity.


This is true of my group as well. We are now starting to buy two lines. The Dragonstar line and the Path of books from FFG.

Art and lay out does not influnce me as much as the feel of the rules and how blanced they are.

 

[Agamon]

Personally, I don't buy a whole lot of non-WotC d20 stuff because I'll only spend so much money on what ends up being the same game. I do own Kingdoms of Kalamar, KoKPG, R&R, a number of Kalamar and S&S mods, and some pdfs, but that's a pertty small percentage of my D&D stuff.

OTOH, my last 8 RPG purchases have been:

Hackmaster Player's Guide
Epic Level Handbook
Silver Marches
7th Sea Players Guide
7th Sea GMs Guide
HERO 5th Ed.
EverQuest RPG
BtVS RPG

Only 2 of those are WotC, but none of them are non-WotC d20 (well, EQ is, but not really...how confusing). I've always thought the d20 movement was a good thing, but, well, different is good, too, to quote an Arby's slogan.

 

[rounser]

The dungeon part I get, but railroading? I own most of the WotC modules published this far, and I'd hardly call them railroaded. Our current adventure, The bastion of Broken Souls, is imho quite free in form, considering the low page-count. The Return to the Temple of EE wasn't very railroaded either.

If you run the Adventure Path modules in sequence as a campaign, the campaign will be linear, and players can just follow the train tracks from one dungeon or town to the next. That's the scale of railroading I meant. With DM elbow grease this can change, or you can put the illusion of choice in there if you're wily, but otherwise the "what adventure will happen next" or "where will we explore next" aspects of the Adventure Path campaign are railroaded.

Just so what I'm referring to doesn't seem "pie in the sky", I can think of one such module that exists with much less railroad than the norm, even if it is a bit bare bones with regards to being fleshed out....Ruins of Adventure (the PnP module version of the original Pool of Radiance). The PCs can choose between several city blocks to clear out next, whether to play detective to corrupt council members in New Phlan, or whether to go a-wandering in the wilderness and run into the detailed lairs, communities and dungeons out there. As a campaign module, it has a lot more depth of player choice than the current "3E state of the art". In fact, it could do with a conversion...

RttToEE SPOILER...

















RttToEE does have one meaningful decision juncture for players that I can recall - "Shall we go to Nulb and the Temple or see what's up at Rastor". Maybe there are more deeper in the crater - we didn't play far enough to find out...the module became more tedious than fun.