Why don't your players like psionics?

[jgbrowning]

You could, but since the spells don't do it, why bother.

Sorry Joe, I really think attitudes like this betray bias. It seems pretty clear to me that latin gets used in D&D either way. Being finnicky about the amount just seems like you are trying to conjure up a reason not to like it.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but this line of argument seems out to lunch to me.

Although I'm not a big fan, I actually like the psionic concept. Like the idea of a separate, internal, independent "magic," but dislike the naming conventions. Firstly, because I think they have a lot to do with its general distaste with many D&D players. And secondly, because there are plenty of ways to do "mental magic" while relying upon a terminology set that isn't as exclusive as what we have now--which would lead to greater acceptance.

I don't think I'm being finnicky about the amount of modern terminology because the amount is an important aspect of the matter. We may disagree how much constitutes an "important" amount, but I don't think that qualifies for dismissing my arguement as finnicky. Especially considering that many of the "modern" sounding spell names come from the 1970-80's version of D&D. For me, twenty years of saying Telekinesis while playing a medieval fantasy game has erased the modern, scientific, veneer from the word.

If I were to create a new "ability" that shocked someone with electricity, Shocking Ray would be the more "magical" name while Static Discharge would be the more "psionicy" name. When writing up new psionic stuff, the naming convention stears me to use a more modern, scientific discription of the abiltiy rather than a non-scientific discription.

I think my assessment that many psionic powers (much more so than D&D spells) have names based more upon how a modern would describe an effect than how a base D&D quasi-medieval persona would describe the effect is a valid point. I also think this naming convention is less congruent with the base medieval D&D universe than non-psionic naming conventions.

As I stated earlier, I wouldn't read an ability called "Flaming Monkey Punch" without thinking about asian society simply because of the name. If I picked up a book filled with a large number of suchly named spells, I'd think that I was reading a heavily asian influenced game book and that perhaps the material wouldn't fit a typical D&D game as well as if the abilities had been named more conventionally. If I picked up a book with abilties named Apopsi, Biofeedback, Combat Precognition, and Hypercognition, I'd start to think I was reading a Sci-Fi game book before I'd think I was reading a fantasy game book.

joe b.

 

[Psion]

Fair enough. Still largely a matter of perspective though. Frex, I personally would not see "precognition" being native to SF at all. Old ladies in corner shops with tarot cards and crystal balls do it; not what I normally associate with SF. OTOH, I am perfectly comfortable seeing the concept transfered to some soothsayer in a wagon train of gypsy-like forest nomads.

 

[jgbrowning]

Fair enough. Still largely a matter of perspective though. Frex, I personally would not see "precognition" being native to SF at all. Old ladies in corner shops with tarot cards and crystal balls do it; not what I normally associate with SF. OTOH, I am perfectly comfortable seeing the concept transfered to some soothsayer in a wagon train of gypsy-like forest nomads.

Of course, but would you associate what the old ladies are doing more with "magic" than to "psionics"? There's the rub. None of us (well, almost none) believe in magic. Quite a few of us believe in psionic (psychic) abilities.

I know it's a matter of taste. But I've heard it so much that I can't help but think that is part of the reason why a lot of people don't like psionics. The concept has always been outside the tradtional D&D mechanics wise and because I like the concept, I'd rather see some of the naming conventions change. I think the psionic concept fits better with many different fantasy role-playing archetypes (power of the mind over matter is not an uncommon trope), and I think psionics could, effectively, expand to fit those concepts by losing some of it's sci-fi flavor.

joe b.

 

[cybertalus]

This is what it seems to get used for half the time, but I'm of the opinion that if you want an alternative magic system, make an alternative magic system...don't compromise psionics by removing the flavour that actually makes it psionics...and I view the "same-as-magic" thing as purely a design convenience, a patch.

How would it compromise psionics? Psionics would still exist for those who like it as is, but for those who can't get past the flavor of it, something very mechanically similar would also exist as a magic system.

I dare someone to take all the SRD 3.5 psionic rules, and publish an "alternate magic" spell book with "mana" and renamed powers. I bet it would out-sell the ExPsiHB.

Well it's only 50 weeks until April Fool's Day....

Seriosuly though, that would be interesting to see, especially if they ported over the psionic combat rules. They may still be a little clunky, but they definitely outshine any "mage duel" systems I've seen for D&D.

 

[rounser]

How would it compromise psionics? Psionics would still exist for those who like it as is, but for those who can't get past the flavor of it, something very mechanically similar would also exist as a magic system.

"Here's a peanut butter and bacon sandwich! But don't worry, we've genetically engineered the bacon so it tastes like strawberry jam."

 

[heimdall]

Psionics are integrated into my DragonLance game as well, but with a psion that came over from another realm (homebrew). Up until this point we've used the PsiHB + If Thoughts Could Kill + Mindscapes. My homebrew world has psionics well integrated. Psionics != magic and that does make the psion more valuable. When SR stops the mages and clerics cold, his effects penetrate. Of course, the opposite has been true. When PR prevents his powers from working on a foe, the wizard tends to get trigger happy. The party has found a good compliment between the spells casters and said psion.

That being said, I do integrate in psionic capable enemies and psionic based weapons. The last adventure they actually relied on a dorje the psion had with 50 charges of detect thoughts. They had to scan the thoughts of the townsfolk to figure out which one a demon had possession of. Cleric of Paladine gives a temple rededication which the town turns out for (set during the War of the Lance) and the psion mingles in the crowd. Bam! He finds the demon and they go about defeating it.

 

[Sejs]

It's sci-fi magic.

Don't like how arcane and divine magics use one system but psionics use a second system.

Rabid, burning hatred for Psionic Feats - oh no, to get Improved Dodge you have to be a psion. Heaven forbid you just spend another feat to get the next iteration of dodge and -not- have mind ju-ju.

Requires shoe horning to work with a normal campaign, though the idea of an all-psionics, no normal magic campaign is somewhat interesting. Would take some doing, possibly along the lines of Deryni books.

 

[reiella]

Of course, but would you associate what the old ladies are doing more with "magic" than to "psionics"? There's the rub. None of us (well, almost none) believe in magic. Quite a few of us believe in psionic (psychic) abilities.

I know it's a matter of taste. But I've heard it so much that I can't help but think that is part of the reason why a lot of people don't like psionics. The concept has always been outside the tradtional D&D mechanics wise and because I like the concept, I'd rather see some of the naming conventions change. I think the psionic concept fits better with many different fantasy role-playing archetypes (power of the mind over matter is not an uncommon trope), and I think psionics could, effectively, expand to fit those concepts by losing some of it's sci-fi flavor.
joe b.

[ Realization Disclaimer : Doh, me a bit off topic here, see above for my reasons why . I do happen to agree with jb here as this is a reason some folks don't like psionics. I just don't happen to think it's 'the real reason' . And I'm sorry if I seem a bit riled up over it . ]

And therein lies simply an inherit problem of a venture, you can't please everyone.

If you make psionics too "Flavor-Ful" similiar to magic, you'll find others upset (in fact, many are now at 3.5's treatment of psionics); and you'll have to deal with the question of "Why do we need another sort of magic". Especially when the back-flavor between a psionicist and a sorcerer are extremely close (power of the mind versus power of the blood).

As an aside, for the gripes about the latin base.
Latin is used in scientific terms for a few reasons, most notably is that it's a dead language and words are fairly absolute in that regard. The other, a bit more historically at least, is that it was a more arcane (dict definition closer to 'secret' than magic) language that was only known by the learned.

To me, at least, assuming that use of latin implies a sci-fi feel, is akin to saying melee weapons implies a fantasy feel. [Hrm, not as good an example as I wanted, but oh well ]

[ Grammar fix and an aside ]
Seems while I was writing, some folks decided to chime in enough to prove my first point .

 

[Tessarael]

I've been in a long running campaign in Mystara. I did briefly have a psionic character. She sucked, because 2nd edition psionics sucked. She didn't last long, partially as a result, and I had zero attachment to the character once I realised how weak (at least to me) it appeared. (Weak => little use in or out of combat.) It was a low level character - roughly 2nd or 3rd level.

Other than that, there is one other character that I know of in this setting that has had some psionic abilities since hrmmmm maybe AD&D 2nd edition? With kind of a jedi-style class with special abilities.

Now psionics might suit my current character far better than Wizard, but my character will go the Wizard then Arcane Trickster route. Why? Firstly, psionics simply has zero importance in Mystara (Alphatian and Glantri Schools of Magic, but where is psionics?). Secondly, psionics is tacked on to the existing D&D system as an afterthought. There haven't been Rogue/Psionicist prestige classes. The magic items aren't incorporated. Psionic combat worked weirdly and broke things.

Does the Expanded Psionics Handbook fix things? Possibly some of this. If they were really smart, they would have magic item tables that included DMG + Psionic items (like say Unearthed Arcana's magic items tables for AD&D to include more magic items), so that you could randomly generate normal items as well as psionic items. Will I buy it? No. I've had zero use out of my 3E Psionics handbook, other than to look through it, go hmmm, I like that they switched to a similar system to Wizard and Cleric, and then it has been of no use in the campaign.

I think there are two places my character might learn psionics:
- Cranium Rats (ahahha, he killed a few of these)
- Mind Flayers (run run run away)
- Alphatian Home System (not likely to go back there any time soon)

So yeah, doesn't fit the campaign, don't know about it, why would my character be interested or take levels in it?

Just my experiences ...

 

[johnsemlak]

I've been in a long running campaign in Mystara. I did briefly have a psionic character. She sucked, because 2nd edition psionics sucked. She didn't last long, partially as a result, and I had zero attachment to the character once I realised how weak (at least to me) it appeared. (Weak => little use in or out of combat.) It was a low level character - roughly 2nd or 3rd level.

Other than that, there is one other character that I know of in this setting that has had some psionic abilities since hrmmmm maybe AD&D 2nd edition? With kind of a jedi-style class with special abilities.

Now psionics might suit my current character far better than Wizard, but my character will go the Wizard then Arcane Trickster route. Why? Firstly, psionics simply has zero importance in Mystara (Alphatian and Glantri Schools of Magic, but where is psionics?). Secondly, psionics is tacked on to the existing D&D system as an afterthought. There haven't been Rogue/Psionicist prestige classes. The magic items aren't incorporated. Psionic combat worked weirdly and broke things.

Does the Expanded Psionics Handbook fix things? Possibly some of this. If they were really smart, they would have magic item tables that included DMG + Psionic items (like say Unearthed Arcana's magic items tables for AD&D to include more magic items), so that you could randomly generate normal items as well as psionic items. Will I buy it? No. I've had zero use out of my 3E Psionics handbook, other than to look through it, go hmmm, I like that they switched to a similar system to Wizard and Cleric, and then it has been of no use in the campaign.

I think there are two places my character might learn psionics:
- Cranium Rats (ahahha, he killed a few of these)
- Mind Flayers (run run run away)
- Alphatian Home System (not likely to go back there any time soon)

So yeah, doesn't fit the campaign, don't know about it, why would my character be interested or take levels in it?

Just my experiences ...

Just out of curiosity--Mystara being an OD&D setting was largely developed without the inclusion of psionics. In Mystara's 2e era was any material ever written that 'placed' psionics in the setting and gave it some specific flavor?