D&D General Why DPR Sucks: Discussing Whiteroom Theorycrafting

[Maxperson]

Um .....

I appreciate your input, but this makes it clear that you seem to lack a certain foundation in analytics.

How many dead rounds are you giving melee classes due to creatures being more than base movement away? Casters don't have that problem nearly as often. And that's just one of the variables that alter DPR.

 

[NotAYakk]

DPR calculations answer questions of value.

I mean, the fact that DPR calculations say that Monks and Rangers have issues, and then we actually add up damage done by said classes and ... they are only above a grapple-bard ... it sort of indicates that they (as classes) aren't very good at helping reduce HP to 0.

How deadly a class feels is part of its identity, and how fast it reduces opponents HP to 0 is part of that.

Arguing "I felt deadly" and "the fact you didn't feel deadly is just your opinion" is nearly pointless. Arguing "actually, when everything is going my way, I still am less than 2/3 as deadly as that dude over there" is a nice, solid point to make.

I mean, I get that Paladins have good burst damage. But if it turns out their adventuring day damage contribution also matches the "sustained" damage classes while also being able to burst heavier when it matters is something that is really hard to determine the answer to without doing DPR calculations.

Not just naive ones. Doing ones with various AC, with various assumptions, with various numbers of foes, etc. Doing them when you pretend "there is only one fight that matters, burn all resources" vs "how can you efficiently pour out damage over a day". And when you efficiently pour out damage, what is the focus trade off?

Suppose I am playing with a frankenbuild paladin/warlock/bard and another barbarian/rogue and a pure fighter. Is my frankenbuild's damage output actually big, or does it just look like it because I threw the kitchen sink at it? Do I tone it back because it will make other less insane builds useless, or can I have fun with a frankenbuild without breaking the game?

 

[FrogReaver]

How many dead rounds are you giving melee classes due to creatures being more than base movement away? Casters don't have that problem nearly as often. And that's just one of the variables that alter DPR.

You are on the right track. That one parameter could turn any melee character into doing less damage than wizard does with firebolt.

 

[FrogReaver]

The questions we're asking are how effective anything is. And we can get that by analyzing the data.

Analyzing data isn't going to show you how effective a class is. Analyzing data is going to show you how effective an average player that plays that class is. You aren't measuring the class independently of the player.

DPR calculations are just thought-experiments. They're those riddles ted-ex gives where they tell you that something very specific and incongruent is happening and you have to figure out the best course of action given these strange rules.

The same is with DPR.

DPR is the riddle "Assuming all characters are in-range and capable of having any weapon or feat they choose with maximum resources, which of these two scenarios would you choose if you wanted to go purely for damage."

That's all DPR solves, a riddle. Take away the range stipulation, add cover, add terrain, take some resources away, and restrict options. Now, the actual damage on the board is going to be so wildly different than DPR that DPR is obviously useless. And that's not even everything to account for.

There's a difference in arguing DPR isn't perfect and DPR is nearly worthless. I agree it's not perfect, but it is very worthwhile.

I understand your viewpoint that mindlessly collecting data won't give exact answers, but where else is there to collect the data of how well something performs than in-performance?

Some cars may handle a little bet on snow. Some on wet roads. Some on dry roads. Some on offroad. How the heck can I possibly answer which car handles the best in the real world?

Car manufacturers do it. They calculate the ideal environment that they can predict, but cars are often put in unpredictable environments. Terrible weather, crashes, poor terrain. These are all unpredictable, but if not accounted for, can create a car that's amazing in-theory but becomes a deathtrap in real life and would be prone to recalls.

Car manufacturers aren't trying to answer the question of which car is the most effective. If they were, all that data would be nearly pointless. They have a different goal in mind - to sale the best car they can sale. Adequate, saftey, power, speed, amenities and style for a good price (to essentially maximize their profits). Different people value different things more or less and the car companies all sell different cars because of those differences.

 

[Stalker0]

DPR calculations answer questions of value.

I mean, the fact that DPR calculations say that Monks and Rangers have issues,

Just want to check, do the DPR calculations say that Fighters have issues... because a dueling sword and board fighter's DPR is significantly below a Monk's (even when not using flurry) at levels that matter (aka 1-10). Like, a good bit behind.

 

[NotAYakk]

Just want to check, do the DPR calculations say that Fighters have issues... because a dueling sword and board fighter's DPR is significantly below a Monk's (even when not using flurry) at levels that matter (aka 1-10). Like, a good bit behind.

Sure, it says a sword and board fighter does poor DPS.

 

[FrogReaver]

Just want to check, do the DPR calculations say that Fighters have issues... because a dueling sword and board fighter's DPR is significantly below a Monk's (even when not using flurry) at levels that matter (aka 1-10). Like, a good bit behind.

Not at levels 6 and 7.

Even at level 8-10 it’s 23 vs 26.5. I wouldn’t call that difference significant. With crits factored in its only +12% better for such monk.

 

[renevq]

I

DPR calculations answer questions of value.

This is I think, where the crux of the matter lies. DPR doesn't just answer questions of value; DPR itself is something whose value to a character should be considered, but its value is grossly overstated. To bring back the baseball analogy, batting average is a stat that says something about a player's offense, but it's far from the most valuable thing they can bring to the table.

 

[Northern Phoenix]

I generally find "DPR hunting" to be very annoying but i still need to be aware of it so that i can balance encounters properly. While 5e is generally decently balanced, it has some very poor "nova" balance points that you need to know how to work around.

 

[lingual]

Why the hate on dpr? I would bet that even the OP does some quick damage calculations is his or head when rolling a character. And the calculation has to be in a white room because otherwise there would be too messy. If you hate dpr then disregard it.