D&D General Why Fantasy? Goin' Medieval in D&D

Let's start with the basic question, before getting into the "good" and the "bad" of fantasy. Why? Why fantasy? The short and simple answer is similar to the reason we climb mountains- "Because it's there." The slightly longer reason is because of the historical antecedents- D&D was the first RPG. The early RPGs that followed were often either reactions to D&D (Bunnies & Burrows), or were, for the most part, house rules and expansions of the original D&D rules (Chivalry & Sorcery). The gestalt of the 70s, from Tolkien to Led Zeppelin to Baker-era Doctor Who to Star Wars (which was "A long time ago ..." and featured swords and wizar.... um, Jedi) was conducive to fantasy. There was definitely a first-mover advantage. But while that is all true, it isn't the entirety of the truth.

I would say (and I have said) that another reasons that fantasy predominates in the RPG world is because fantasy, moreso than any other genre, particularly lends itself to both the "campaign" and to the reward play loop (zero-to-hero) that so many people enjoy. In addition, while other genres have examples of group play (Science Fiction has Star Trek and the bridge crew, while Super Heroes has, inter alia, the Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy), few genres have such a well-entrenched (and copied) example like the Fellowship.
I'd also add that it's relatively easy to come up with a 'yes, but what do we do?' for fantasy, and that helped it right out of the gate. With a Star Wars game, you can recreate the original movies or have another attempt to defeat the Empire's other important installations three planets over or whatnot, but that's quite a bit of heavy lifting on the planning. Star Trek you could run into a new planet of hats each week, but again planning. Traveller made it fairly simple in the what being 'pay the mortgage on your ship,' and I think that's why it beat out plenty of other early SF RPGs (including an early Star Trek one) as one of the preeminent sci fi RPGs. While plenty of other RPGs have flourished -- including things like White Wolf Storyteller, which didn't tend to have dungeons to loot (/focus on money/treasure in general) or epic battles of good&evil, a lot of them have struggled with the issue of 'what does the average gaming adventure look like?' and often there's lots of inter-table variation and it requiring inventive GMs to keep the thing going.
 

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Laurefindel

Legend
In another thread, ostensibly about the recent revelations regarding M.A.R. Barker, a side topic came up that was of interest to me- specifically, the idea that all of this "fantasy" and "medievalism" in D&D is nonsense.
Hum, not sure if I agree with all of your post @Snarf Zagyg, but I guess that's what prompts interesting discussions.

Crap, just read your OP and now my lunch break is almost over so I'll be brief for my first reply:

"Fantasy" is getting wider and wider in scope with each passing decade, and D&D is trying (a bit too hard IMO) to catch up with this expansion. D&D doesn't need to be a realistic simulation of the middle ages, but it can be (and should at least allow to recreate) an unrealistic representation of a medieval age that never was. And while anything can go as soon as you pronounce the word "fantasy" it doesn't mean anything should. Or at least everything at the same time. You can explore back and forth in historical periods and cultures, but many settings works best when there is a clear reference to an image/knowledge we share. Medieval-fantasy is a useful reference, if only to tell how much departure a setting has from that reference.

... and now I'm late.

also; Bards.
 



payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Fantasy is popular not because D&D, but because it's the most easily accessible vehicle for power fantasies.
Maybe? In early fantasy power was often intangible to the protagonists. They survived by being smart or sheer will against ghostly beings and cosmic horrors they could never fully comprehend. Modern fantasy is much more tangible. Protagonists wield the power of Gods as easy as picking up a sword. I think the power fantasy is a more modern experience/expectation. Fantasy is a great vehicle for this, but its not always been the expectation. So then, why was it so popular before it was about power fantasy?
 

I would say (and I have said) that another reasons that fantasy predominates in the RPG world is because fantasy, moreso than any other genre, particularly lends itself to both the "campaign" and to the reward play loop (zero-to-hero) that so many people enjoy.

There are more tropes to use in fantasy gaming than sci-fi gaming, IMO. One is "no cops", since you probably started in a poorly-defended border region with either monsters, hostile peoples, or both nearby. I could probably start a fantasy campaign today, just say "you guys are total strangers who meet in an inn", not do a session zero and still get a game going. I tried something like that with my first d20 Modern campaign and it failed so badly I had to start all over again. That's when I started doing session zero.

In addition, most people have a passing familiarity with medieval culture. Sure, we get a lot of details wrong, but it's harder to envision a future society. Suppose I'm totally new to D&D. Never played, never saw Critical Role, nothing like that. I still have some idea what a medieval lord is, what a peasant is, I played with a nerf bow and a sword once, I walked past a Catholic church once so I have some vague clue what a cleric is, I saw part of one of the Harry Potter franchise movies and maybe ten minutes of Lord of the Rings so I know what a wizard is, and I saw Goodfellas so thieves guilds and berserkers aren't totally confusing to me, and so forth. To do the same thing for a sci-fi setting, I would have to absorb a lot of details for that one setting. Despite having watched a combined 26 or more seasons of various Star Trek shows I don't feel I know the setting well enough to run or even play in a Star Trek game. (At best, I could play in a Star Trek-like universe. Preferably one without transporters!)

There's also rules issues, where you are doing things impossible in real life but you still have to deal with cell phone communication, computer hacking and stuff that medieval people never had to deal with. I've read a lot of sci-fi systems and essentially came up with two conflicting games I want to play:

1) Fate. This is rules lite. Very lite. You have a tricorder so you can detect stuff. The details aren't important.
2) A crunchy game like Mutants & Masterminds. Your tricorder carries out these functions (unless you spend a hero point).

I wanted to play d20 Future, based on d20 Modern, a game system I liked, and is neither rules lite nor crunchy. But d20 Future was terrible. It was heavier than Fate but lighter than Mutants & Masterminds. It had multiple subsystems that weren't balanced with each other (such as genetic engineering and mutations being different things) and a bunch of power ups that nobody asked for. It didn't know what it wanted to do. On the other hand, we all know what a sword does. Maybe we're calling it a longsword when it should be some other type of sword, but it's a sharp pointy thing you use to defend yourself.

I've heard/read that there are a lot more sci-fi book settings than fantasy settings. Ironically this might power interest in fantasy games. It's probably easier to start a Lord of the Rings game than a Babylon 5 game because more people are familiar with LotR (from the smaller reference pool) than Babylon 5 (from the much larger pool of available sci-fi franchises).
 

GuyBoy

Hero
Cacao is not very pleasant to eat.
Chocolate, on the other hand, is widely accepted as adorable.

The analogy has some applicability here, with real European medieval history being the cacao. It was pretty unpleasant, often boring, featured huge ecclesiastical powers and complexity, detailed taxation, stratified societies, cruel laws and the Black Death. Oh, and if you fell in love with the wrong person, well, Google Abelard!
D&D Medievalism is like chocolate. It's absolutely based on real medieval life but it doesn't smell as bad ( literally as well as figuratively...see the lice in Aragorn's hairy armpit). It has been flavoured and modified by chivalric idealism (Morte dArthur), by legends such as Robin Hood and Roland, by Brothers Grimm's C19th re-imagining of earlier folk tales, by JRRT and by effective soft power propaganda of the British Royal Family, as well as other things.

They are definitely related but shouldn't be mistaken for each other. I like chocolate btw.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Maybe? In early fantasy power was often intangible to the protagonists. They survived by being smart or sheer will against ghostly beings and cosmic horrors they could never fully comprehend. Modern fantasy is much more tangible. Protagonists wield the power of Gods as easy as picking up a sword. I think the power fantasy is a more modern experience/expectation. Fantasy is a great vehicle for this, but its not always been the expectation. So then, why was it so popular before it was about power fantasy?
I disagree. Look to the early games from the designers, where worlds were shaped by the characters. Fantasy as novel isn't the comparison, fantasy as vehicle for playing out power fantasies is a perfect fit. Magic does whatever you need.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I disagree. Look to the early games from the designers, where worlds were shaped by the characters. Fantasy as novel isn't the comparison, fantasy as vehicle for playing out power fantasies is a perfect fit. Magic does whatever you need.
Yeah, I am thinking back to those early games which were far more survive it if you can. Later, it has become more kick it's ass because you are powerful. The GM's NPCs have to try and survive the PCs! A complete turn around.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yeah, I am thinking back to those early games which were far more survive it if you can. Later, it has become more kick it's ass because you are powerful. The GM's NPCs have to try and survive the PCs! A complete turn around.
Are you talking across editions, because it seems that happened in Gary's game. Hence why Tome of Horrors was penned.
 

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