D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Ilbranteloth]

I came up with a new replacement, although it's a 2nd level ability to compensate for the removal of the 10th level one.

Divine Intervention
It's the same as a rogue's Cunning Action, except the actions you can use are Help, Use a Skill (replaced the Hide and Search actions in my campaign), and Use an Object actions.

The intention is to allow the cleric to use their bonus action primarily for healing or stabilizing others, but it's pretty flexible to gives them other options too.

I also replaced a fighter's Action Surge with the same thing, except they can make a single weapon attack, Help, or Use an Object.

 

[Maxperson]

Breadth of Coverage? What does the god of Undeath do that Orcus doesn’t? Bodaks, Ghouls and Liches are all traced back to creations of Orcus, so he’s making undead. His goal is a world full of undead with no living beings remaining.

So creating, empowering and spreading Undead... what more is there? What cosmic job does the God of Undeath do that Orcus doesn’t do plus more?

But more importantly, why not consider them as gods? Why can’t Orcus hold sway over Undeath and there be no god of undeath

They are not gods, because they are not gods. It takes many, many worshipers to be a god and they don't have them. Could you make a demon lord like Orcus a god? Sure. Is he a god? No. Is he the same as a god? Absolutely not. He's not as limited, nor does he have as much power to spread undeath. Orcus has a lot, but not as much. The god of undeath would also have power over the necromantic spells, unlike Orcus. He would have the worship of necromancers, unlike Orcus(for the most part).

These are the domains of Myrkul in the Realms. Autumn, Corruption, The dead, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old age, Parasites, Wasting.

These are his worshippers. Evil mages and cultists, necromancers, and powerful undead.

Orcus has......undead.

To use your store analogy, you’ve got a Wal-Mart, Krogers, Fulmers, and Meijers. Sure, only one of them is Wal-Mart with it’s massive corporation, but if you’ve got all four at the same intersection it just seems weird because they all offer just about the same things.

No. Orcus is 7-11. Myrkul was Wal-Mart. He's small potatoes compared to Myrkul.

“The Solars”, but we know next to nothing about them. They aren’t figures that are named or have much of a presence.

Donathiel, Xerona, Arithiel are names Solars in D&D. Planescape gave us those, and there are probably a few others scattered about over the years.

Out of curiosity I checked their MM entry. They are very powerful, and could potentially take on most of the Demon Lords from Out of the Abyss, as long as they could keep their distance and kite the Demon Lord. If they are forced into an even fight they would lose the majority of the time. Heck, Orcus actually has a decent shot if he can cast time stop, because he removes their immunity to necrotic and makes them vulnerable instead and then summons undead to attack with readied actions when the time stop ends.

As usual, it depends on the edition. Comparative power fluctuates.

But even if the Solars are the equivalent of the Demon Lords, that just makes the problem worse. The forces of good would then be five or six times more powerful than the forces of evil, so why does evil still exist? If the God of Death who hates undead and two solars under his command could waltz into the Abyss and destroy Orcus who is a source of so many undead and their evil, and he doesn’t just because... he chooses not to? That makes no sense, his cosmic job is to remove undeath from the world and he could destroy this source of undeath in the world and just chooses not to do it.

There is more evil than good. The infinite layers of the Abyss are all infinitely large. That's a lot of demons. Really, all of the planes are infinitely large, so there really is no upper hand to be had. And again, the god of death isn't going to march into the abyss to do anything. He has responsibilities on Toril(or whichever world he's a god in) and is too busy to just put those on hold to go adventuring.

So, beings that are maybe as strong as the weakest level of deity can gang up and destroy Lolth, who is a full-fledged Deity (though lesser) who also has the power and rank of a Demon Lord, because to be a Demon Lord you simply need to own a layer of the Abyss, which she does.

And her portfolios are Chaos and Evil, both of which the Abyss exemplifies. As well as Destruction and Assassination, which can be justified as her taking control of the Abyss and turning it towards her ends.

These are her portfolios. Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, drow. You missed the most important ones.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Lets focus on the D&D game. Lets stay away from any reallife culture wars.

Most of us are here because we have played D&D in ways that we found enjoyable and entertaining.

All of us want to maximize the aspects of the game that are fun. And minimize the aspects of the game that are unfun.

We understand that ‘fun’ means different things for different players. We want other players to make the game their own with as little effort as possible.

Some players hate farrealms in their psionics. Some players hate Warlords in their healing. I hate polytheism in my settings.

Polytheism is, to me, moronic. To worship a person because they are powerful, would be akin to literally worshiping President Obama or President Trump. In my eyes, only an idiot would do something like this.

I lack interest in ‘exploring’ fake feelings about a fake religion that is mind-numbingly stupid.

I hate polytheism.

I want zero polytheistic flavor in my campaign settings. I hate the 5e Players Handbook for infecting everything with crappy polytheistic flavor, even to the point of baking its flavor into hard mechanics. It ubiquitous. Even the minimalist Basic D&D pdf mentions ‘gods’, ‘deities’, including reallife polytheism like the gods of Egypt by name, or the Hellenistic gods by name − dozens and dozens and dozens of times.

So far, D&D 5e is the opposite of setting neutral. And I hate that.

Other than asking you if polytheism would bother you if the campaign is in ancient Greece, all of my questions were about D&D/RPGs in general.

I agree with the last statement, about it not being setting neutral. Although I understand why it isn't, I don't like it either. In part because I think a lot of it is poorly designed, and in part because that poor design screws up the Realms. And I totally get your comments about different people not liking certain things. I don't have dragonborn in my campaign for example. But that's just it, I just drop them. Tieflings don't have horns and tails in my campaign.

Your comments still lead me to believe that monotheism is OK with you. Even though your character would still be worshiping a person because they are powerful.

But in the game, you're not only worshiping them because they are powerful. You're also worshiping them because they give you special abilities and spells. So it's a far cry from worshiping the president.

I have to admit I don't really recall the other polytheistic flavor in the PHB, but then I tend to look at it specifically to get crunch, not fluff. I ignore almost all of the fluff, because that majority of it is irrelevant in my campaign, even though I run it in the Realms. Even the deity stuff is different in my campaign (similar, but different enough). I, however, do enjoy exploring how religion impacts the world, so I have quite a bit more of it in my campaign.

Regardless, as I said, I was asking out of curiosity. You don't have to justify your dislike of polytheism for me or anybody else. I can't make them take polytheism out of D&D, but you are welcome to ignore it and I'm assuming that since you're on the boards that you are able to find a group that respects that.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

No. Orcus is 7-11. Myrkul was Wal-Mart. He's small potatoes compared to Myrkul.

But Orcus has Slurpees.

 

[Maxperson]

But Orcus has Slurpees.

And lottery tickets! I didn't say there weren't advantages to Orcus

 

[Lanefan]

I want zero polytheistic flavor in my campaign settings.

OK. Do you prefer monothestic instead (and if so, only one deity to cover all races and cultures, or one deity each?), or a game world without deities at all?

I ask because while there's probably a way to work monothestic into a game world and have it not function all that differently to what we're used to, taking deities out completely would involve some pretty major kitbashing in order to make the divine classes (Cleric, Druid, Paladin for sure, maybe impacts a few others as well) work as intended.

Lanefan

 

[Shasarak]

Breadth of Coverage? What does the god of Undeath do that Orcus doesn’t? Bodaks, Ghouls and Liches are all traced back to creations of Orcus, so he’s making undead. His goal is a world full of undead with no living beings remaining.

So creating, empowering and spreading Undead... what more is there? What cosmic job does the God of Undeath do that Orcus doesn’t do plus more?

But more importantly, why not consider them as gods? Why can’t Orcus hold sway over Undeath and there be no god of undeath

To use your store analogy, you’ve got a Wal-Mart, Krogers, Fulmers, and Meijers. Sure, only one of them is Wal-Mart with it’s massive corporation, but if you’ve got all four at the same intersection it just seems weird because they all offer just about the same things.

In a Forgotten Realms type system then what you propose could work well and Orcus could indeed usurp the Undead portfolio from whomever is currently holding it now. It has happened before and could indeed happen again.

Really it is up to the designers to come up with some kind of hook to differentiate these things. For example the Raven Queen specifically fighting against Orcus to prevent him from taking her Portfolio.

 

[Shasarak]

OK. Do you prefer monothestic instead (and if so, only one deity to cover all races and cultures, or one deity each?), or a game world without deities at all?

I ask because while there's probably a way to work monothestic into a game world and have it not function all that differently to what we're used to, taking deities out completely would involve some pretty major kitbashing in order to make the divine classes (Cleric, Druid, Paladin for sure, maybe impacts a few others as well) work as intended.

Lanefan

The closest I have seen in DnD was Dark Sun but even then there were multiple Elemental Priests so it still managed to sneak in.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They are not gods, because they are not gods. It takes many, many worshipers to be a god and they don't have them. Could you make a demon lord like Orcus a god? Sure. Is he a god? No. Is he the same as a god? Absolutely not. He's not as limited, nor does he have as much power to spread undeath. Orcus has a lot, but not as much. The god of undeath would also have power over the necromantic spells, unlike Orcus. He would have the worship of necromancers, unlike Orcus(for the most part).
These are the domains of Myrkul in the Realms. Autumn, Corruption, The dead, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old age, Parasites, Wasting.
These are his worshippers. Evil mages and cultists, necromancers, and powerful undead.
Orcus has......undead.
No. Orcus is 7-11. Myrkul was Wal-Mart. He's small potatoes compared to Myrkul.

Where to begin here… hmm.

Powerful undead you say? Like, Liches who made a pact with Orcus to be created? And Bodaks are relatively powerful as well at CR 6, plus the Bodak entry mentions these Hierophnts of Annihilation that worshipped Orcus and are immensely powerful (equal to Balors according to Volos) and can create more Bodaks. Also, plenty of necromancers who worship Orcus and serve him.

Autumn is the season of the harvest, this would clearly belong to Chauntea. Necromancy spells, being magic, would be the domain of Mystra. The Dead belong to Kelemvor if memory serves.

But frankly, this is a little moot because I think this sums up my thoughts pretty well. Who’s Myrkul? I can’t say I’ve ever heard of him before. Turns out he is in the PHB, so I have at least read the name before. You say Orcus is small potatoes compared to him, but in terms of name recognition Orcus is top tier.

You can say Gods are gods because they are gods and they have a lot of worshippers because they are gods, but that just flows into a circle of logic that never ends. You say Orcus is less limited than Myrkul, but Orcus is the Demon Prince of Undeath, I can’t think of anything he does that does not involve the Undead in one manner or the other. Could he grow a garden of roses? I guess so, but he’s more interested in creating undead and spreading his influence through his cult and more undead and demons. You say Orcus is less powerful, but frankly how so? What can’t he do that Myrkul can?

There is more evil than good. The infinite layers of the Abyss are all infinitely large. That's a lot of demons. Really, all of the planes are infinitely large, so there really is no upper hand to be had. And again, the god of death isn't going to march into the abyss to do anything. He has responsibilities on Toril(or whichever world he's a god in) and is too busy to just put those on hold to go adventuring.

What adventuring? He Gates in front of Orcus’s Castle, blows it up, maybe summons Orcus in front of him and rips him apart like a wet paper bag. It’ll take three minutes tops, and that’s if he doesn’t just summon Orcus to him and rip him apart and leave the castle alone.

That’s how powerful he is according to you.

And we know for a fact the Deities of the Forgotten Realms at least can go and do a lot of stuff. Sleeping with mortals or going and getting into arguments with each other, maybe instead of going and having a quickie they pop down and kill a demon lord occasionally.

I mean, Infinite Demons with Finite Devils, both with Demon Lords and Archdevils vs Infinite Angels with Solars and Beings of such immense power they could destroy the strongest of the Demon Lords and Archdevils with but a thought.

This equation leads to a world of good and light that is rarely in actual danger from the forces of darkness, because the light can always win as long as they get the gods to actually do something instead of saying “meh, all my worshippers dying isn’t my problem”

These are her portfolios. Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, drow. You missed the most important ones.

I didn’t miss any, I just didn’t mention those that had nothing to do with the point. Her having the spider portfolio means nothing towards he potential to take over the Abyss, while Evil and Chaos do.

Besides, it’s not like there are greater and lesser portfolios, they are all equally important.

 

[Mirtek]

but if you’ve got all four at the same intersection it just seems weird because they all offer just about the same things.

Really? Is it that unusual in the USA? In Germany it's 99.9% certain that if a chain opens a store at least 2 competitors will build stores right next to it.




“The Solars”, but we know next to nothing about them. They aren’t figures that are named or have much of a presence.

Out of curiosity I checked their MM entry. They are very powerful, and could potentially take on most of the Demon Lords from Out of the Abyss, as long as they could keep their distance and kite the Demon Lord. If they are forced into an even fight they would lose the majority of the time. Heck, Orcus actually has a decent shot if he can cast time stop, because he removes their immunity to necrotic and makes them vulnerable instead and then summons undead to attack with readied actions when the time stop ends.

But even if the Solars are the equivalent of the Demon Lords, that just makes the problem worse. The forces of good would then be five or six times more powerful than the forces of evil, so why does evil still exist? If the God of Death who hates undead and two solars under his command could waltz into the Abyss and destroy Orcus who is a source of so many undead and their evil, and he doesn’t just because... he chooses not to? That makes no sense, his cosmic job is to remove undeath from the world and he could destroy this source of undeath in the world and just chooses not to do it.







So, beings that are maybe as strong as the weakest level of deity can gang up and destroy Lolth, who is a full-fledged Deity (though lesser) who also has the power and rank of a Demon Lord, because to be a Demon Lord you simply need to own a layer of the Abyss, which she does.

And her portfolios are Chaos and Evil, both of which the Abyss exemplifies. As well as Destruction and Assassination, which can be justified as her taking control of the Abyss and turning it towards her ends.

I mean, not just Lolth, a lot of the Evil Deities listed (some of them Major) could benefit from ruling the Abyss or the Hells. Heck, Bane is the God of Tyranny, why isn’t he ruling the tyrannical hells himself, it fits like a glove.

Ah, right, WoTC decided we needed demons, devils, and evil gods and they all “serve a purpose”

Frankly, it doesn’t make sense. I hate having to hand-wave “it’s just because” instead of having it be something that makes sense.




A lot of these are great ideas. I will say a lot of tropical lizards also eat fruits, so a fruit farm wouldn’t be too biologically weird.






But you’ve got to be really careful about that stuff when god can literally send an angel to smite you for misusing his teachings.




I know that was the case in 4e, but I don’t know if I heard it before then or not.

Honestly, I can accept your logic above as something that makes more sense as to the balance between Gods and the Lower Planes.[/QUOTE]