D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Mirtek]

The ones who were deities were basically demigods, the weakest sort.

More were lesser gods than demigods.

The intermediates and greater gods would have beaten them like they were 2 year olds had they fought. The lesser gods would have done the same to the demon lords who were demigods or lower.

Except that they would not. The odds would clearly favor the higher tier deity, but there would still be a significant risk that the lower tier deity wins, and in any case the winner would be pretty spend from the battle and that could make them tempting prey for other deities.

A lesser power needs to carefully consider whether fighting a demigod is truly worth it. Even if she has an 80% chance of winning, that's still a 20% chance of losing everything and even if the 80% chance comes true, can she quickly enough recover from her wounds and consolidate her gains bevor a rival attacks?

Kiaranshalee was a demigoddess when she fought and killed the lesser god (back in the day) Orcus.

The chances grow and the risk of injuries decline the bigger the difference in divine tier, but even greaters slaying lessers need to be wary about the power they have to spend on that and the bloody nose they might suffer in return, even if the risk of death is very, very low in such a match

 

[JeffB]

But Orcus has Slurpees.

That's a Demon Lord at work for ya, because everyone knows.....

Upon seeing Orcus' "Fresh Food" Items. Make a WIS save (DC20.. DC45 if 12am or later and PC is intoxicated), for PC to realize they should not eat any of these things. If save fails, see below.


Legendary Action-
Cause Diarrhea- when a PC partakes in one or more of Orcus' .99¢ Chili Cheese Dogs, Mystery Meat Pizza Slices, or 2 Day Old Boston Cream Filled Doughnuts, make a Con save (DC30) every hour for the next 24 hours. Any missed save results is massive cramping, prayers to the porcelain god*, and inability to move more than one square/5' from toilet area.

If PC Misses 3 saves in a row, see "Contract Food Poisoning" and "Meet Deductible for ER visit"



*aka Commodeus

 

[Maxperson]

More were lesser gods than demigods.
Except that they would not. The odds would clearly favor the higher tier deity, but there would still be a significant risk that the lower tier deity wins, and in any case the winner would be pretty spend from the battle and that could make them tempting prey for other deities.

A lesser power needs to carefully consider whether fighting a demigod is truly worth it. Even if she has an 80% chance of winning, that's still a 20% chance of losing everything and even if the 80% chance comes true, can she quickly enough recover from her wounds and consolidate her gains bevor a rival attacks?

Kiaranshalee was a demigoddess when she fought and killed the lesser god (back in the day) Orcus.

The chances grow and the risk of injuries decline the bigger the difference in divine tier, but even greaters slaying lessers need to be wary about the power they have to spend on that and the bloody nose they might suffer in return, even if the risk of death is very, very low in such a match

Most were intermediate and greater gods, though. At least in the Realms. The power level skyrocketed with each step up in 3e, the first edition to make gods into.......gods. An intermediate god had pretty much no chance to lose against a lesser or demigod. As for Kiaransalee beating Orcus, the power of Plot is how that happened, and of course he came back and kicked her demi-arse back out of his home.

In 2e they by RAW could not be killed except by another god of the same or greater stature, so an intermediate god could walk through demon lords all day long, even if they were lesser gods. Unless the god of lesser stature had an artifact.

 

[Remathilis]

Really? Is it that unusual in the USA? In Germany it's 99.9% certain that if a chain opens a store at least 2 competitors will build stores right next to it. .

Depends on the intersection. Sometimes, we have a Starbucks across the street... from a Starbucks.

 

[Mirtek]

In 2e they by RAW could not be killed except by another god of the same or greater stature, so an intermediate god could walk through demon lords all day long, even if they were lesser gods. Unless the god of lesser stature had an artifact.

If anyone can be expected to whip up an artifact it's certainly a deity (of any tier).

But even if the lesser tier deity lacked an artifact to deliver the killing blow, that's only of little consolation for the higher tier deity that lost the fight. Because even if the victorious lesser tier deity lacks the means of delivering the killing blow herself and thus has to walk away from the broken unconscious from of the beaten opponent, you can be sure there will be more than one entity willing to and capable of stealing the kill after the lesser tier deity did most of the work (and someone willing and a capable of shanking the lower tier deity still spend from winning the victory against a superior foe by the skin of her teeth).

The risk of losing the battle is still a serious deterrent, even against a foe who can only beat you close to dead instead of fully dead.

 

[Maxperson]

If anyone can be expected to whip up an artifact it's certainly a deity (of any tier).

Not in 2e they couldn't, or else they would all have them in their stat blocks already.

But even if the lesser tier deity lacked an artifact to deliver the killing blow, that's only of little consolation for the higher tier deity that lost the fight. Because even if the victorious lesser tier deity lacks the means of delivering the killing blow herself and thus has to walk away from the broken unconscious from of the beaten opponent, you can be sure there will be more than one entity willing to and capable of stealing the kill after the lesser tier deity did most of the work (and someone willing and a capable of shanking the lower tier deity still spend from winning the victory against a superior foe by the skin of her teeth).

No. They are not all standing around in one spot waiting just in case a few get into a fight. There aren't other gods just waiting around to "steal the kill". I mean, you can home brew that into your game if you want, but most of us I think would treat the situation for more reasonably and understand that things like that aren't going to happen.

Besides, when a god is beaten by a lower powered deity in 2e the body doesn't even wait there to be killed. By RAW the body dissipates to reform somewhere, so your fiction amounts to a house rule. Again, fine if you want to play it that way, but it's not how it was in 2e by RAW.

 

[Mirtek]

Not in 2e they couldn't, or else they would all have them in their stat blocks already.

2e deities have no statblocks beyond their avatars.

No. They are not all standing around in one spot waiting just in case a few get into a fight. There aren't other gods just waiting around to "steal the kill".

A fight between deities is an apocalyptic planes shaking event. You can be sure it will be noticed and watched.

Besides, when a god is beaten by a lower powered deity in 2e the body doesn't even wait there to be killed. By RAW the body dissipates to reform somewhere,

You believe the essence is invulnerable during this time? The other deities are literally just essence of the same kind until the decide to manifest either avatars or their true forms. And there are cases where badly hurt deities were left in a state still embodied and alive and not yet dissipated.

At the very least numerous assaults on the deities realm can be expected while the deity is stuck in the dissipated state and yet unable to manifest

Higher tier deities can just walk around and crush lower tier deities without risk and cost to themselves, just like a level 14 fighter can't just crush a level 12 fighter. Sure, the odds are in his favor and if one would run the fight often enough the 14th level would win the majority, but he can never be sure that this one particular fight won't be one of those few exception that happen from time to time

 

[Maxperson]

2e deities have no statblocks beyond their avatars.

It's blatantly obvious that they don't, or that sentence would not have been included. If all of them can just whip up artifacts, then there is no need make the statement that a less powerful god needs one to kills a more powerful god.

A fight between deities is an apocalyptic planes shaking event. You can be sure it will be noticed and watched.

By the local fauna, sure. There is nothing in the book to support your assertion that the entire multiverse will be aware of a god fight. You can home brew it to be this planes shattering event if you wish, but that's not how 2e presented gods.

You believe the essence is invulnerable during this time? The other deities are literally just essence of the same kind until the decide to manifest either avatars or their true forms.

RAW is that they dissipate and reform. Nothing says they are vulnerable to other gods during this time, so you are welcome to home brew that into your game.

RAW does not support your assertions that gods will be aware of any other god fight that happen, are plane shattering events, are vulnerable while dissipated, or probably whatever other excuses you are going to come up with in an attempt to be right.

And there are cases where badly hurt deities were left in a state still embodied and alive and not yet dissipated.

But not unable to act, at least not without the power of plot.

At the very least numerous assaults on the deities realm can be expected while the deity is stuck in the dissipated state and yet unable to manifest

Not unless the attacker wants to die. Pantheons look out for one another. Also, there is nothing to indicate that the deity doesn't just come back instantly and at full power when he returns to his realm.

Higher tier deities can just walk around and crush lower tier deities without risk and cost to themselves, just like a level 14 fighter can't just crush a level 12 fighter. Sure, the odds are in his favor and if one would run the fight often enough the 14th level would win the majority, but he can never be sure that this one particular fight won't be one of those few exception that happen from time to time

The power level is not 14 to 12. The power level is more like 14 to 1 or 2. A demigod or lesser god wouldn't be more than a blip to an intermediate god or higher. Each step up is a massive power increase.

 

[Lanefan]

RAW is that they dissipate and reform. ...

RAW does not support your assertions ...

Aye, marry, there's the rub!

What you're missing is that RAW, RAI, RAKitbashed, or any other kinds of R just don't apply to deities.

Why is this, you ask? Because who do you think wrote all those R's anyway; and what kind of foolish deities would write such a huge great bunch of rules without leaving several hundred backdoors, loopholes, intentional omissions, exploits and vaguenesses in order to ensure that they can, in fact, do whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want to.

And that's why deities don't (often) fight each other. Each one knows that not only can he or she do absolutely anything but that the opposition can as well, making it both a no-win situation (and thus pointless) and astonishingly destructive to all around (fun, perhaps, but also kinda pointless).

It's like the divine version of the nuclear deterrent.

Lan-"and the DM is, after all, the ultimate deity in any game world"-efan

 

[Mirtek]

There is nothing in the book to support your assertion that the entire multiverse will be aware of a god fight.

Check out "On Hallowed Ground"

If all of them can just whip up artifacts, then there is no need make the statement that a less powerful god needs one to kills a more powerful god.

They also take the effort to point out that demipowers can't just innately planeshift at will like all powers from lesser+ can and that they need to cast spells to do so like mortals. However shortly after they state that any power (inlcuding demis) can cast all magical spells in existance at will. So the caveat about demigods and planeshift is basically meaningless, as it hardly matters if a demigod is planeshifting at will due to calling upon his innate power to planeshift or calling upon his innate power to cast a spell to make him planeshift

Nothing says they are vulnerable to other gods during this time,

Nothing says they are invulnerable or have any special kind of protection during that time.

Also, there is nothing to indicate that the deity doesn't just come back instantly and at full power when he returns to his realm.

Just like there is nothing that they are invulnerable?

BTW there is something that says so. Per L&L and F&A you'll roll on a percentile dice for the number of days it takes the deity to be able to reform (nothing about vulnerabily during this time though)

The power level is not 14 to 12. The power level is more like 14 to 1 or 2. A demigod or lesser god wouldn't be more than a blip to an intermediate god or higher. Each step up is a massive power increase.

Actually that is nothing that is supported by RAW and the many conflicts between deities of different tiers strongly indicate otherwise, or else they would not be much of a conflict.

Demis have beaten lessers, lessers triumphed over intermediates and intermediates over greaters. Not all of those battles ended with a kill, but there have been tough fights and victories of the lower tiers. They're less powerfull, but far from the level that they are "just a blimp" on the radar.