D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Chaosmancer]

That's a great point, and I can answer it, kind of, with two different analogies.

Imagine you like a superhero (say, Batman). If you started reading him recently, then you don't have to find out about his history to enjoy him now. But you might enjoy him more and get into the whole "Batman thing" by delving into his history. It won't always be easy- a lot of it you'd have to catch by reference unless you have a lot of time and money to get old comics- but you'd probably enjoy it. It would be enjoyable for you.

Or maybe you like movies, in general. You've heard Citizen Kane was really good. But when you watched it years ago, you just didn't get it. In order to understand why it is so good, you have to really understand movies, movie history, and filmmaking. It requires a deep dive to appreciate. It doesn't mean that watching Citizen Kane is required to enjoy the awesomest movie ever, that being the wondrous magnificence that Michael Bay just bestowed upon us at your local Megaplex, but ... it can't hurt, right? It's a short hop from Citizen Kane to Transformers.

It's the same with D&D. You don't need any of this to enjoy your game. None of it. But ... if you really really like D&D, maybe you want to learn more. Eventually, you'll appreciate certain conversations more, maybe catch a few of the Easter eggs, etc. It's not necessary, but it's enjoyable, if you're like that.

History can be fun, just because it is fun.

Oh, I get history can be fun for it's own sake but... hmm analogies are hard for this because it's something I've only seen in RPGs.


One aspect of it is this argument over when things were introduced.

Take Batman, let's say we're talking about the Batmobile and how it has rocket-powered ejector seats and whether those seats could allow him to clear a bridge. Someone says the seats have been there since issue #37, and someone else chimes in and says actually they were introduced in a special mini-comic that took place before issue #35 but then were used in issue #37 as a reference to that. Then a third person says those were just the ejector seats, the rocket powered part came in issue #40.

This entire time though, we're talking about Batman in issue #634 and the issue isn't when the rocket powered seats were introduced, but how they are used today.


History is interesting for it's own sake, but we often seem to get into these sideline debates about who has the correct date for the change in the rules when everyone agrees that the rules were changed and it was a few decades ago, just people have different memories of when exactly that changed occurred.


As for the part about the investing in stuff when it is going to change. I don't have a good analogy for it, but it's just something I've noticed in these past few pages. There is this line of "It was this way in 3rd, I don't care about 4th, and 5th hasn't decided yet" that I just find odd.

There seems to be this general acceptance that the old rules for some of these things no longer apply because 5th will rewrite it or they need to make a statement saying that those old rules still apply specifically before they actually apply.

It's like the game is a version of Schrödinger's Cat, these old rules everyone is referencing may or may not apply, we have to wait for the new rules to be written. But then, why bother finding these old rules other than for the curiosity of seeing what they were like?



Also, Micheal Bay is not a film director I respect and the Transformer movies have annoyed me since the second or third one (I can't tell the difference between the two so I'm never sure which one it was that annoyed me). And this new one is even worse because they keep billing it as the last movie when they have a contract stating they will make more movies.

But that is entirely beside the point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's a great point, and I can answer it, kind of, with two different analogies.

Imagine you like a superhero (say, Batman). If you started reading him recently, then you don't have to find out about his history to enjoy him now. But you might enjoy him more and get into the whole "Batman thing" by delving into his history. It won't always be easy- a lot of it you'd have to catch by reference unless you have a lot of time and money to get old comics- but you'd probably enjoy it. It would be enjoyable for you.

Or maybe you like movies, in general. You've heard Citizen Kane was really good. But when you watched it years ago, you just didn't get it. In order to understand why it is so good, you have to really understand movies, movie history, and filmmaking. It requires a deep dive to appreciate. It doesn't mean that watching Citizen Kane is required to enjoy the awesomest movie ever, that being the wondrous magnificence that Michael Bay just bestowed upon us at your local Megaplex, but ... it can't hurt, right? It's a short hop from Citizen Kane to Transformers.

It's the same with D&D. You don't need any of this to enjoy your game. None of it. But ... if you really really like D&D, maybe you want to learn more. Eventually, you'll appreciate certain conversations more, maybe catch a few of the Easter eggs, etc. It's not necessary, but it's enjoyable, if you're like that.

History can be fun, just because it is fun.

Oh, I get history can be fun for it's own sake but... hmm analogies are hard for this because it's something I've only seen in RPGs.


One aspect of it is this argument over when things were introduced.

Take Batman, let's say we're talking about the Batmobile and how it has rocket-powered ejector seats and whether those seats could allow him to clear a bridge. Someone says the seats have been there since issue #37, and someone else chimes in and says actually they were introduced in a special mini-comic that took place before issue #35 but then were used in issue #37 as a reference to that. Then a third person says those were just the ejector seats, the rocket powered part came in issue #40.

This entire time though, we're talking about Batman in issue #634 and the issue isn't when the rocket powered seats were introduced, but how they are used today.


History is interesting for it's own sake, but we often seem to get into these sideline debates about who has the correct date for the change in the rules when everyone agrees that the rules were changed and it was a few decades ago, just people have different memories of when exactly that changed occurred.


As for the part about the investing in stuff when it is going to change. I don't have a good analogy for it, but it's just something I've noticed in these past few pages. There is this line of "It was this way in 3rd, I don't care about 4th, and 5th hasn't decided yet" that I just find odd.

There seems to be this general acceptance that the old rules for some of these things no longer apply because 5th will rewrite it or they need to make a statement saying that those old rules still apply specifically before they actually apply.

It's like the game is a version of Schrödinger's Cat, these old rules everyone is referencing may or may not apply, we have to wait for the new rules to be written. But then, why bother finding these old rules other than for the curiosity of seeing what they were like?



Also, Micheal Bay is not a film director I respect and the Transformer movies have annoyed me since the second or third one (I can't tell the difference between the two so I'm never sure which one it was that annoyed me). And this new one is even worse because they keep billing it as the last movie when they have a contract stating they will make more movies.

But that is entirely beside the point.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

One thing I can never get over is these discussions about which 20-40 year old book set the standard for X and whether it was in Y edition, Z edition, or what have you.

I get the same feeling, believe it or not.

I try to avoid participating in these kinds of discussions when it comes to the Forgotten Realms because, more often than not, people do one or both of the following:

1) They get the history wrong--both for the Realms as a fictional setting, and for the production history of the Realms as a product.

2) They take what's written in the sourcebooks (Realms and non-Realms) and use that material to force feed their point of view down other people's throats, and in so doing they avoid context and having to parse what's actually rules vs. what's a guideline.

I like to step in when things get really bad. I'm not always right (and that's a good thing, because I'm still learning) but most of the time I can help correct the course of the conversation or otherwise rest assured that someone spoke up to counter whatever "common knowledge" is being bandied about as though it were truth.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Take Batman, let's say we're talking about the Batmobile and how it has rocket-powered ejector seats and whether those seats could allow him to clear a bridge. Someone says the seats have been there since issue #37, and someone else chimes in and says actually they were introduced in a special mini-comic that took place before issue #35 but then were used in issue #37 as a reference to that. Then a third person says those were just the ejector seats, the rocket powered part came in issue #40.

This entire time though, we're talking about Batman in issue #634 and the issue isn't when the rocket powered seats were introduced, but how they are used today.

Which Batman we talking? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis? Nu 52? Post Flashpoint? Rebirth? All Star Batman? Earth One?

 

[Satyrn]

Which Batman we talking? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis? Nu 52? Post Flashpoint? Rebirth? All Star Batman? Earth One?

Adam West is the one true Batman!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Take Batman, let's say we're talking about the Batmobile and how it has rocket-powered ejector seats and whether those seats could allow him to clear a bridge. Someone says the seats have been there since issue #37, and someone else chimes in and says actually they were introduced in a special mini-comic that took place before issue #35 but then were used in issue #37 as a reference to that. Then a third person says those were just the ejector seats, the rocket powered part came in issue #40.

This entire time though, we're talking about Batman in issue #634 and the issue isn't when the rocket powered seats were introduced, but how they are used today.

I can totally get behind that comic books and FR have a lot in common. My dislike of playing and running FR is best summed up with the DCURPG I tried to run in the early 2000's even though it has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms.

We were using the Westend Games d6+cards rule set. We had real comic experts, we had a person who had never read a comic, and pretty much everything inbetween...yet we had 2 major blow ups and 2 medium size misunderstandings that I think are important to show why games with large lore and character benches are a problem.... and the best part is we thought we side steped them all...

I was running the game for 6 players. We agreed to do an amalgam of Batman Beyond and the cartoon universe. I had in my mind the set up for a slightly changed version of the JLA 2 parter to have happened, and the JL disbaned (hawkman dead, and GL leaving earth for a long period) leaving the world without a league... first minor problem came with that pitch, 2 players (one very vocal and charismatic who got others to agree) didn't want to form a justice league...even if they would be the only, and biggest team they wanted a different name. I agreed and said "Can we make a new Titan team then?" and my pitch got modified to them all being high school students... OK so now we have our game and everyone is talking about characters and we can start character creation night.

1st issue(Major size misunderstanding) I say we will begin in New York highschool. One player (who reads comics far more then I was at the time) says "If we are going to be titans isn't that the wrong coast? so rather than go point by point over the course of 2 real life weeks we argued back and forth (on game night and other nights) I said Titan tower is in NY, he said San Fransisco bay... long story short we were both right. When I was reading in the 80's and 90's it was in NY, what he was reading now it was in SF, and we both had comicbook proof...

2nd issue (Medium miss understanding) one player (who didn't read comics) pitched his idea for 'Donald Parker' who was descendent of peter and had a tech based spider suit... he asked why the 90's spiderman series of cartoons (and for that matter that area x-men) couldn't fit with batman beyond timeline, since they were all in comics together.

OK, so character creation was weird... our 6 players ended up as pretty much spiderman and rogue, a ghost of a sucide teen, a guy who's powers were radiation control and self resurrection, a half white Martian (so super str, flight, shape change and telepathy), and a green lantern...all teens going to highschool

3rd issue came game 2 (medium misunderstanding) The bad guy was Lex Luther's daughter, and current CEO of Lex Corp. They knew she was the bad guy but couldn't prove it... this lead to multi weeks of not getting how to have a superhero game, and lots of "Why doesn't superman heat vision Lex" discussions. This problem came in the form of D&D players not quite getting the superhero thing..

4th issue came end of game 3 or 4 while still wrestling with 3 and having gotten a good laugh at the end of 1. (Big blow up) The first time I brought NPCs in from the comics. So I had two NPCs who were twin girls. They were nerdy students at the school but become (super hero form so on/off powers with physical changes in looks) superman like beautiful heroes. They had flight, invulnerability (kryptonite and magic weakness) enhanced str, speed, endurance, and energy blasts from hands and minor TK, and telepathic defenses that also allowed them a telepathic bond... Everyone was super happy to have them join the team, and find out the mystery of where these semi telepathic kryptonians came form... So being a nerd I introduced there parents. There father had the body of the kryptonian Eradicator (Last son from 4 supermen story) but the mind of a star labs scientist...there mother was Maxima. They split there time between here and an alien world(maxima is queen of said world almanac I think) but are allowing there children to live and be raised here... I thought it was cute, and would open up off world adventures. OPPS... from this moment of revelation I got instant "Hey if maxima is around does that mean Captian Atom is...what about Firestrom (they were all in extreme justice togather after all)" so I had to start figuring out what was and was not cannon...no big deal. Until the first time I brought a villain in after this. Very first thing I heard was "We should call Maxima and Eradicator in" followed by "Hey did your mom ever give you access to her old JL communicator, we should try to call the old JL...even if they aren't able to help some of them should have kids with powers..."


If you act like Elminster and the 7 sisters are not there, you may get away with it...once you start to hint at them in the least you could have the same issue as issue 4... "Wait, if this is important why aren't..." issue 3 I don't think can directly be used as a FR issue, but 1 and 2 are perfect fits for any setting with movies, books, or just too much lore...if you don't all have the same level of understanding missunderstandings happen...

You know what I found elemenats all 4 issues. Make up your own setting.

 

[Maxperson]

Take Batman, let's say we're talking about the Batmobile and how it has rocket-powered ejector seats and whether those seats could allow him to clear a bridge. Someone says the seats have been there since issue #37, and someone else chimes in and says actually they were introduced in a special mini-comic that took place before issue #35 but then were used in issue #37 as a reference to that. Then a third person says those were just the ejector seats, the rocket powered part came in issue #40.

You're all crazy. It was issue #36 and it wasn't ejector seats. It was an ejector seat. Batman made it out, but Robin died a horrible death.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Adam West is the one true Batman!

Ah....Batman '66....I forgot to mention that one!

I can totally get behind that comic books and FR have a lot in common. My dislike of playing and running FR is best summed up with the DCURPG I tried to run in the early 2000's even though it has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms.

We were using the Westend Games d6+cards rule set. We had real comic experts, we had a person who had never read a comic, and pretty much everything inbetween...yet we had 2 major blow ups and 2 medium size misunderstandings that I think are important to show why games with large lore and character benches are a problem.... and the best part is we thought we side steped them all...

I was running the game for 6 players. We agreed to do an amalgam of Batman Beyond and the cartoon universe. I had in my mind the set up for a slightly changed version of the JLA 2 parter to have happened, and the JL disbaned (hawkman dead, and GL leaving earth for a long period) leaving the world without a league... first minor problem came with that pitch, 2 players (one very vocal and charismatic who got others to agree) didn't want to form a justice league...even if they would be the only, and biggest team they wanted a different name. I agreed and said "Can we make a new Titan team then?" and my pitch got modified to them all being high school students... OK so now we have our game and everyone is talking about characters and we can start character creation night.

1st issue(Major size misunderstanding) I say we will begin in New York highschool. One player (who reads comics far more then I was at the time) says "If we are going to be titans isn't that the wrong coast? so rather than go point by point over the course of 2 real life weeks we argued back and forth (on game night and other nights) I said Titan tower is in NY, he said San Fransisco bay... long story short we were both right. When I was reading in the 80's and 90's it was in NY, what he was reading now it was in SF, and we both had comicbook proof...

2nd issue (Medium miss understanding) one player (who didn't read comics) pitched his idea for 'Donald Parker' who was descendent of peter and had a tech based spider suit... he asked why the 90's spiderman series of cartoons (and for that matter that area x-men) couldn't fit with batman beyond timeline, since they were all in comics together.

OK, so character creation was weird... our 6 players ended up as pretty much spiderman and rogue, a ghost of a sucide teen, a guy who's powers were radiation control and self resurrection, a half white Martian (so super str, flight, shape change and telepathy), and a green lantern...all teens going to highschool

3rd issue came game 2 (medium misunderstanding) The bad guy was Lex Luther's daughter, and current CEO of Lex Corp. They knew she was the bad guy but couldn't prove it... this lead to multi weeks of not getting how to have a superhero game, and lots of "Why doesn't superman heat vision Lex" discussions. This problem came in the form of D&D players not quite getting the superhero thing..

4th issue came end of game 3 or 4 while still wrestling with 3 and having gotten a good laugh at the end of 1. (Big blow up) The first time I brought NPCs in from the comics. So I had two NPCs who were twin girls. They were nerdy students at the school but become (super hero form so on/off powers with physical changes in looks) superman like beautiful heroes. They had flight, invulnerability (kryptonite and magic weakness) enhanced str, speed, endurance, and energy blasts from hands and minor TK, and telepathic defenses that also allowed them a telepathic bond... Everyone was super happy to have them join the team, and find out the mystery of where these semi telepathic kryptonians came form... So being a nerd I introduced there parents. There father had the body of the kryptonian Eradicator (Last son from 4 supermen story) but the mind of a star labs scientist...there mother was Maxima. They split there time between here and an alien world(maxima is queen of said world almanac I think) but are allowing there children to live and be raised here... I thought it was cute, and would open up off world adventures. OPPS... from this moment of revelation I got instant "Hey if maxima is around does that mean Captian Atom is...what about Firestrom (they were all in extreme justice togather after all)" so I had to start figuring out what was and was not cannon...no big deal. Until the first time I brought a villain in after this. Very first thing I heard was "We should call Maxima and Eradicator in" followed by "Hey did your mom ever give you access to her old JL communicator, we should try to call the old JL...even if they aren't able to help some of them should have kids with powers..."


If you act like Elminster and the 7 sisters are not there, you may get away with it...once you start to hint at them in the least you could have the same issue as issue 4... "Wait, if this is important why aren't..." issue 3 I don't think can directly be used as a FR issue, but 1 and 2 are perfect fits for any setting with movies, books, or just too much lore...if you don't all have the same level of understanding missunderstandings happen...

You know what I found elemenats all 4 issues. Make up your own setting.

Honestly, and I don't mean this to sound harsh, but this isn't really the fault of the setting. The fact that Titans Tower has been in both NY and SF gives you options. It's the fact that people couldn't agree that was the issue.

You should have just made it in some made up DC city like Bludhaven or something like that. Or say "this campaign is taking place on Earth-Me....get over it."

 

[Chaosmancer]

OK, so character creation was weird... our 6 players ended up as pretty much spiderman and rogue, a ghost of a sucide teen, a guy who's powers were radiation control and self resurrection, a half white Martian (so super str, flight, shape change and telepathy), and a green lantern...all teens going to highschool

3rd issue came game 2 (medium misunderstanding) The bad guy was Lex Luther's daughter, and current CEO of Lex Corp. They knew she was the bad guy but couldn't prove it... this lead to multi weeks of not getting how to have a superhero game, and lots of "Why doesn't superman heat vision Lex" discussions. This problem came in the form of D&D players not quite getting the superhero thing..

Complete side tangent:

I've tried to run a few super-powered games (One with Savage Worlds and a handful with Cold Steel Wardens) and I've often run into the same problem over and over again. I'm wondering if you have advice.


Combat in supers games tends to quickly fall into one of two sections. Either I bring a team of custom built baddies to offer a superpowered challenge to the players (which eventually leads to their being a lot of supervillains) or, even worse I set up a bunch of cardboard cut-out minions that fold immediately and offer no threat to the party.

How did you end up handling combats? It's my biggest frustration in these types of games beyond the fact that they generally end up detective games and my players are never very well suited to detective style games.