D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[KahlessNestor]

This is the same as mentioned above where Thor or the rest of the avengers are mysteriously absent from a world altering event with no explanation given. The just-shrug-and-ignore-it excuse is extremely lazy writing and bugs me in comics, movies and any other media.

One of the things about running an RPG is that you can have the characters react the way you want. The whole deal where you are yelling at the screen "No! Don't split up again are you stupid?! Someone dies every time you do that!" And then you get frustrated and angry and never watch that show again.

And yet I see people posting events in their game where they do exactly that because "Yes, I know it is a bad idea, but it is so classic to the genre I'm going to do it anyway." No! It is not classic! It is lazy writing! The author couldn't think of a good reason for the group to split, so he just had them randomly decide to do so for no reason, just to move the plot along. Arggh! It makes me crazy!

Sorry, I kinda got off track there... Back to the point...

Sure, you can ignore the obvious solutions to a problem "because they are too easy and don't tell a good story". And if your group is fine with that then of course there is no such thing as bad-wrong-fun. But for some of us if you want a good story, then make sure you have a good reason for us to not take the easy solution.

You have a have a bunch of Demon Lords invading the Underdark? Well we have a scroll of sending and my wizard met Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun as part of his background. Why wouldn't I just contact him and let him know? Why wouldn't he send a warning to Elminster? By the time of the final showdown I expect that all of the high-powered casters in the realms, along with their favorite meat shields, will be there to kick some serious ass.

TL;DR: I'm not going to do something stupid just to save your plot. But this gets to your next point.



Yep, you need a reason for why the heavy hitters are not going to bother saving the world. And the reason it is a valid criticism is that the published adventure paths don't seem to have any reason for them not to. The fact that Elminster is not even a consideration in the Tyranny of Dragons adventure line is the problem.

Honestly Elminster is always a problem. Now he has the same excuse as Superman or Thor, and that is that he can't be bothered by local events, and that makes sense. But for world shattering events there needs a reason. The usual cop out is "He is away on another plane", but that gets old after awhile.

Or maybe he was dealing with another Cult of the Dragon issue in the Dalelands and wasn't able to help?

Also, Khelban is dead by the time of the demon invasion of the Underdark.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I can't tell whether you don't care about canon at all, in which case I am unclear why you are so passionate about the subject ...

Or you care deeply, in which case I am unclear why you are limiting the Forgotten Realms to only those 5e books, which excludes the vast majority of the Forgotten Realms. *shrug*

Either way, passion is great!



Hey, that was my post. Wait ... THAT WAS MY POST. I almost feel passionate. I'm sure it will pass.

Anyway, I thought it would be helpful because it both provides links and authority regarding the issue at hand, and might channel the conversation more productively. For those who care about canon.

Or not. I'm more of a Pachelbel's Canon type myself. BUT WITH ALL THE SHOUTING, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN HEAR IT.

I was going to give you XP, but then you mentioned Pachalbel *shudder*

[video=youtube;JdxkVQy7QLM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM[/video]

 

[KahlessNestor]

Yeah. I love Supernatural, which is (was?) filmed there. They've had cases in Sioux City, Cedar Rapids, Sioux Falls, and Saint Louis -- all towns in which I've spent considerable amount of time and all of which have some architectural norms in them (at least a range). St. Louis is the only one that might have happened, there. The others are somewhat... mis-characterized. It's not outside of my ability to suspend disbelief (nowhere close), but it is humorous.

Sioux City! Sioux Falls! My neck of the woods!

It's like when I was watching Smallville and I was like...why is there never any snow in Kansas? And when did Kansas get...forests of giant pine trees...?

 

[KahlessNestor]

I've never read any of the Elminster books, so I don't know how easily he saves the world. I'm only passing familiar with them by hearing secondhand accounts online. But each setting has these uber-powerful characters....I think the perception is that Elminster is so front and center to the Realms as opposed to other settings and characters.



I think they have put a lot of thought into it. I think that, in their 5th Edition products, they've decided to downplay powerful NPCs in favor of the PCs being the heroes of the stories.

I would say that perhaps one of the big issues might be the fact that each edition of the game has had its own approach to the Realms. So as the setting that's been present for each edition, it's been the most affected by this.

So I'm reading the Elminster books now (on the one in Hell), and he's not really stopping world-shattering events.

Making of a Mage - saves his little country.
In Myth Draenor - saves Myth Draenor, helps raise the mythal
Temptation - saves...someplace near Westgate. This one was kind of all over the place and things were unclear. At one point he takes over a country while the apprentice of an evil avatar of Mystra...
in Hell - saved Shadowdale at the beginning, apparently, which got him thrown into Avernus through a rift.

None of those sounds particularly Faerun-shattering (though I suppose the rift to Avernus could have been.

 

[jasper]

Um...you do realize that they launch every edition of D&D with novels or a series of novels that establish the new canon, right? Including 5e. It's called "The Sundering" series, and "The Sundering" is what sets up 5e, just as the Spellplague (also dealt with in novels) launched 4e. And even the latest Drizzt series dealt with Out of the Abyss. It's all canon.

You do realize with all the beep replace with "Junk Fiction" from the 80s which were D&D tie ins, I quit reading them. And consider them to be a money grab. And other things.
Pss I loved Gord the Rogue was published just in time for the 1E release of books in 1985

 

[Maxperson]

Do the rules - in any D&D edition, come to think of it - specifically say anywhere that gods and their equivalents cannot give (or remove!) xp and-or levels? I get it that the rules do not specifically say they can, but if the rules also do not say they cannot (as in, they don't mention the topic at all) then you're into rulings-not-rules territory where anything's fair game...and rather than altering an existing rule, you're in effect making a new one for your own game.

You cannot assume that if it doesn't say you can't, you can. Once you open that door, the rules also don't say that a sword strike doesn't set off a nuclear blast automatically killing everyone in a 5 mile radius. There are billions and billions things that the rules don't say that you can't do.

Also: in 5e can wishes, be they from the spell or a genie in a bottle, grant (or remove) levels or xp? If yes, then deities (who in theory trump everything) should be able to.

No it can't. At least not unless the DM rules that it can. Wish has this catchall statement,

"You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong."

 

[Maxperson]

Well, let's trace the argument shall we?

Critic: I don't like FR because I feel that the number of high and very high level NPC's in the setting overshadow the PC's. It feels like all the important stuff in the setting gets done by NPC's and the PC's are just sort of there.

Maxperson: Other settings are like this. There's high level NPC's in every setting.

Critic: That's not really true though. Sure, that might be true in some settings. Planescape, for example, features demons and angels walking down the street. It can be a problem for some players when you're a first level PC walking into a bar and there's a freaking Solar sitting next to you having a beer. On the other hand, there are a number of settings where this isn't really true. Dragonlance is very low powered, particularly in the pre-3e incarnation where your high powered NPC's really can't intervene - Par Salian is a very old man who never leaves the Tower of High Sorcery. Dalamar is restricted to his tower. The setting doesn't have any high level clerics or druids (again, pre-3e) and pretty much all the other high level NPC's are bad guys. Ravenloft is another setting where you don't have gobs of high level NPC's wandering around. Greyhawk also doesn't really.

Maxperson: But, only a bad DM would let these powerful NPC's overshadow the players.

Critic: ... I find it rather implausible that you have so many high powered NPC's in the setting that no one ever gets involved. Waterdeep has a population of (depending on which book you read) somewhere between 150k and 2 million. By 3e standards, you have dozens of high double digit NPC's just in that city alone, of every class. Baldur's Gate, according to canon, has about 150k people in it. Again, if we're using 3e demographics, we're talking half a dozen 18th or higher level NPC's of every class. And that's just two cities. There are many cities of similar size in FR. I find it unbelievable that no one ever gets involved when the PC's are dealing with RSE's.

Maxperson: None of that is canon according to me.

Critic: Umm... well... uh...

That's about the long and the short of it, isn't it?

None of which even begins to say your Strawman.

 

[jasper]

Everyone can ignore as much canon as one likes, it doesn't make it any less canon. If the novel Death of the Dragon says that Azoun dies, it's canon. All future supplements dealing with Cormyr's royalty will acknowledge this event. You're free to ignore that for your games, it just requires some extra work refit all future references to the status of Cormyr to your personal timeline where Azoun still lives and rules.
Still doesn't make it less canon. It's events are referenced all over whenever a supplement talks about spellfire.

And if I don't own the book, have never read the book, it is not canon. Canon is not like the rule of law where not knowing will get me jail. Ed Greenwood and Canon Cultists are not going to show up to my door and beat me, whip me, make me write good checks! Canon is what the DM says it is. If you as player want everything to be canon, then be a dm. An Canon DM please make sure you explain all the defects where canon over writes itself.
hmmmm
Canon Cultist not showing up at my door. I may have canon cultists in my home town. That would explain why my cat Annakin was playing with 4d4 underneath my car this morning. I thought those 4 sides look new.

 

[Maxperson]

Just a point about XP. Which edition are we talking about?

In 2e, clerics casting spells got 50 xp/spell level for casting. Wizards got 100 xp/spell level. It was entirely possible for wizards to zoom up levels without leaving their house. IIRC, it took about 6 months for a wizard to hit about 7th level, presuming he blew his load of spells every day.

That's entirely by the book by the way.

Wizards got 50 exp per spell cast to overcome a foe or problem. That excludes just sitting home and casting off all your spells to gain levels.

Clerics got 100 exp per spell cast to further the ethos of their god. That's even more limiting.

The exp for casting spells was obviously intended to happen while adventuring.

 

[Mercule]

Sioux City! Sioux Falls! My neck of the woods!

It's like when I was watching Smallville and I was like...why is there never any snow in Kansas? And when did Kansas get...forests of giant pine trees...?

Yeah. I wondered about that, but I've only been in Kansas on a technicality (Kansas City, mostly MO), so I didn't want to make any assumptions. It's kinda like everyone saying that Iowa is super flat. Growing up in the Loess Hills, I'd have to disagree. It's not exactly the Rockies, but it's far from flat. Nebraska, on the other hand.... I don't think there's actually a single hill on I-80 between Lincoln and the Colorado border -- if you drop a gum drop, it counts as terrain.