D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[pemerton]

anyone playing D&D is going to assume polytheism anyway. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with fantasy genre fiction is going to assume that. It's something of an outlier to see monotheistic fantasy fiction.

This is an interesting point.

My familiarity with fantasy fiction is rather narrow - some "modern classic" children's authors (Susan Cooper, Alan Garner), the Earthsea stories, JRRT, REH and a smattering of Vance. Of those authors, JRRT assumes monotheism; Earthsea really does seem to be "godless" (the God-kings clearly are just humans, and the ancient beings like the Terennon and the Nameless Ones of Atuan are more like primal spirits in D&D terms); REH has many demon-worshipping cults and the like, but what few manifestations there are of what might potentially be divine action (eg in the Phoenix on the Sword and the Hour of the Dragon) are consistent with monotheism. Vance I think is godless. The British authors like Susan Cooper and Alan Garner tend to present Celtic myth (and pre-Christian European myth more generally) as still active in the world, but it is not polytheism in the Egyptian, Greek or Norse sense - a cosmos governed by a pantheon of divine beings. It is more like the spirits and magic of "nature" - actually similar in some respects to Le Guin's nameless ones, but benign rather than malevolent.

These influences probably shape the way I think about religion in fantasy RPGing. I have run plenty of polytheistic gameworlds, but have no trouble either conceiving of and running faux-mediaeval ones.

 

[Yaarel]

My take is. Harry Potter is successful across the planet, across the cultures. It lacks polytheism.

 

[Yaarel]

Heh. I was annoyed by the Greek polytheism in the backstory of the Wonder Woman movie.

But I did find consolation. Wonder Woman is actually an artificial construct, a weapon to destroy Greek gods, the ‘God Killer’. She succeeds in killing the last god, causing the extinction of polytheism forever.

Now, I dont want do deal with polytheism in any way, not even to kill them. But the movie was pretty good.

And nobody actually worships Wonder Woman, despite her ‘divine’ origins.

Fantasy succeeds fine without polytheism.

 

[Mirtek]

The 5e Players Handbook hardwires into an extremely specific cosmological setting. It hardwires into the 5e version of Forgotten Realms.

Flavor-wise yes. Rules-wise no.

A DM can design a campaign setting that creates space for much of this, happily removes some of this, and rewrites certain flavors.

Indeed

A problem is, the players are reading something else.

And that's the argument in a nutshell. Yes, they're reading something else, no it's not universally seen as a problem.

Players: Does the Great Wheel still exist? Does the Astral Plane still exist? How does the Astral Projection spell work? Do Drow still worship Lolth? How do Angels and Eladrin work? Is an Aasimar race possible? Commune spell? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

This is a general issue Form any kind of baked in flavor, nothing to do with whether it's monotheism or polytheism that's baked in.

A DM can have a polytheistic setting where none of that is true or a monotheistic setting where all of that is true or any mixture of that.

E.g

Monotheistic setting a) all true, all ruled by the only deity, the drow worship that deity just like everyone else

Monotheistic setting b) all true, all ruled by the only deity, the drow worship lolth but she's not actually a deity and
b-1) as a result the drow don't wield divine powers
b-2) the only one deity doesn't care and grants their spells anyway

Monotheistic setting c) there's only a single outer plane where all of the wheel is mashed together, all ruled by the only deity, the drow worship deity just like everyone else. All spells Funktion as usual, just mentally replave any plane refered to with the 'superplane'

 

[Mirtek]

My take is. Harry Potter is successful across the planet, across the cultures. It lacks polytheism.

As a many a polytheistic Franchise. HP is also disliked/banned by many monotheistic groups

Also HP is not monotheistic, it's featuring a Version of the real world and thus the major RL polytheistic religions. It just doesn't deal with the truth of any of them.

 

[Mirtek]

’. She succeeds in killing the last god, causing the extinction of polytheism forever.

Yet the fact that the underlying truth of the world is that it's the work of a polytheistic pantheon remains even after said Pantheon is gone. There's also no mention whether the greek deities were the only ones or whether Osiris and Wotan are still sad that Zeus is no longer around for Poker night. Heck any sequel could bring a greek deity survivor formrly believed death

Fantasy succeeds fine without polytheism.

Indeed it does. Just as well it does with it.

Probably one of the lesser contributing in factory either Direktion.

 

[Sadras]

@Yaarel has probably put me on ignore but in any event...

Players: Does the Great Wheel still exist? Does the Astral Plane still exist? How does the Astral Projection spell work?

What do any of the above questions have to do with polytheism? The above may exist in a monotheistic campaign world.

Do Drow still worship Lolth?

Valid question if you're including Drow as a race within your campaign world.

How do Angels and Eladrin work?

And this question arose from the 5e PHB? How, why?

Is an Aasimar race possible?

LOL, So not only is the 5e PHB getting blamed for including too many options, but also because it is excluding?

Commune spell?

Commune spell not in Basic or AD&D?

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

So you dislike answering questions about your campaign world?

The 5e Players Handbook hardwires into an extremely specific cosmological setting. It hardwires into the 5e version of Forgotten Realms.

Many DM's have a session 0, where they discuss the campaign world and possible additions/limitation/alterations to the PHB including mechanics. They might also provide a small handout to the players and perhaps even a map of the world. It seems to work well from what posters have said here.

A DM can design a campaign setting that creates space for much of this, happily removes some of this, and rewrites certain flavors. A problem is, the players are reading something else.

Are you playing with kids?
For a game that requires imagination, you sure seem to underestimate your players' ability to use it.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Sure. But some of the domains - Nature, Tempest, Trickery most obviously - seem more redolent of polytheistic than monotheistic traditions.

Not...really. I mean, Trickery might be...tricky. Death might need some work (no animate dead), but all those domains have been ascribed to the Judeo-Christian God with no effort whatsoever.

 

[Yaarel]

@Yaarel has probably put me on ignore but in any event...

I never put anyone on ignore. I believe all honest disagreements are valuable. Discussions sharpen everyones understanding of complex issues. Sometimes conflicting points of view are equally good, both being good options.

 

[Mirtek]

Not...really. I mean, Trickery might be...tricky. Death might need some work (no animate dead), but all those domains have been ascribed to the Judeo-Christian God with no effort whatsoever.

So we are now talking the judeo-christian god instead of just any made up monotheistic deity?