D&D 5E Why I Am Starting to Prefer 4d6 Drop the Lowest Over the Default Array.

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Why is everyone jockeying for the hero position? Why is the hero the most powerful character? Are your games more like a competition?

If you CHOOSE to have a weaker character/lower stats, that's great!. Lots of people don't get psyched to play mechanically weaker character for a year or so as decided by a random die roll.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Stats: We do 3d6, in order, switch highest with one other and switch lowest with one other (if you want). Or....we roll 4d6, keep 3 (any three you want). Or...we use my water-resistant, patent pending, lifetime guaranteed "Wheel of Pain" method (hard to describe; picture drawing a clock with no numbers; each player at the table, in turn, rolls 3d6; if roll is 10+, it goes on "12 o'clock", if 9-, it goes on "6 'o'clock"; repeat for 1/7 o'clock, 2/8 o'clock, etc; you end up with 6 pairs of high/low stats, opposite each other; players then decide, as a group, which 'pairs' they ALL want to use; The may place where they want; keep re-rolling until all low and all high 'slots' are taken).

Playing Hero's and Stat-Expectations: In my decades of play I've come to realize that some PLAYERS can play heroes, and some PLAYERS can't. I have one friend in my group who really would love to play a "true, good-hearted, altruistic hero"...but ever time he tries he fails. Miserably. Like...spectacularly badly bad. It has absolutely nothing to do with his characters stats. He, as a person, just can not 'instinctively' see the "good" path. Another friend in my group also really wants to play a hero. He does fairly well...up until the point where two things collide. One, he starts to really like his character. Two, he has to make a decision that would be detrimental to his characters well-being. And when I say "well-being", I mean in a broad sense (e.g., if he is playing a Paladin and finds a suit of +2 plate mail...then finds out he will have to give it back to the prince because it was the kings armour...he will try and find ways to delay that, or outright keep it via lying, bargaining, or otherwise obfuscating who's armor it is...all the while trying to rationalize why his actions are 'good', even though it's blatantly obvious to me and the other players that it isn't [this is the point when he starts to get frustrated with his character, because I call him out on it and he has to back down...thus, "being detrimental" to his character and thus, after a couple of these he no longer likes his character and either kills him off or tries to go full-dark-side/antipaladin).

So, it's not the stats that make a hero. It's the player. It has also been my experience that players who think they "must" have good to really good stats in order to "have fun playing a real, true hero" are ones that lack that ability to actually be a hero in the game. Sooner or later they will start to use their high stats to lord over all others (be they PC's or NPC's). They will do stuff not because it's the right thing to do, but because they are blinded by pride and hubris ("I'll do it. I'm the only one here capable of pulling it off...even though it may very well be my death. I'll go so that you guys don't die" <-- may be an altruistic statement...but it's hardly "heroic" if the 'hero' has to inform the people he is saving of how inferior they are to him).

Stats, overall, just don't matter much at ALL when it comes to being a true hero...that fall squarely and completely on the Player himself or herself.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Oofta]

If rolling a 14 when someone else has two 18s causes you to feel overshadowed and like you're never pulling your own weight, and there are only 4 or 5 PCs in the group, the core issue there is "player competency," not stat rolls.

Just a quick stab at this - I have other things I should be doing. Let's take my example of the character with 2 18s and nothing below a 14 as an example. Call them Super Dave. Assume they're both doing dwarven fighters.

Super Dave starts with a 20 strength and con. Outside of that, they still don't have any weaknesses from a stat standpoint, getting at least a +2 to all saves and skills.

Let's call the loser of the random roll lottery Lumpy Lew. With 1 14 and 1 10 (other stats below 10, I don't remember exact numbers).

Lumpy starts with 16 strength, 12 con. Negatives to most saves and all skills other than athletics.

Because of different chances to hit and damage at 1st level, Super Dave is going to do around 60% more damage per round.

HP? Super Dave starts with 15 HP, Lumpy with 11. This gets much worse later on.

Feats? Super Dave doesn't really need to up his stats so he gets a ton of feats if he wants. Lumpy? If he doesn't spend points on con and strength I don't see how he's going to survive.

Options? Super Dave can do just about any class or multi-class. Lumpy? Not so much.

Like I said, it's the disparity between the two builds. I don't need (or want) an 18 stat at first level. But these two characters are night and day.

Could I have fun playing Lumpy? Sure, if other people were playing Lumpies. Would I want to play Lumpy on Super Dave's team? No. If that makes me a terrible person, so be it.

 

[cbwjm]

This is why I think requiring at least 2 15s is a good idea when rolling. In 2e I never let someone's rolled stats get in the way of the class they wanted, I would let them bump their scores up to the minimum requirements.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Just a quick stab at this - I have other things I should be doing. Let's take my example of the character with 2 18s and nothing below a 14 as an example. Call them Super Dave. Assume they're both doing dwarven fighters.

Why would you make them both dwarven fighters? If you're trying to pull your own weight in a two-man party, you don't make a second fighter.

Super Dave the Dwarven Fighter will appreciate having Reorx the Dwarven Cleric to bless him/heal him/conjure food and water; he would appreciate having Fizban the Human Wizard to do crowd control and divinations; he would appreciate having Merry the Swashbuckling Halfling to scout ahead and tell him where the weak targets are.

In fact, in a party with Super Dave the Fighter, even ANOTHER Super Dave the Fighter is potentially going to make someone feel overshadowed or redundant (depending on how vulnerable the players' feelings are and how much they need to feel unique). Your complaint just illustrates the fact that it's not about stats at all--it's about lack of player savvy.

I'll repeat my challenge:

Challenge: sketch out a group of three or four 9th level PCs with high stats (e.g. each one of them has two 18s and no stat under 14), who are so good that no 9th level PC I make with a high stat of 14 can meaningfully contribute to their adventures. (If you want to choose another level besides 9th you can, but it's best if it's at least 5th because at extremely low levels, table-dependent factors like equipment, social contacts, and DMing style will dominate--making it 9th level makes it easier to have an Internet discussion since you can point to concrete abilities.)

I assure you that I'm not going to make them all the same class.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Stats, overall, just don't matter much at ALL when it comes to being a true hero...that fall squarely and completely on the Player himself or herself.

You're equivocating between two different meanings of the word "hero". You're talking about a "hero" in the modern sense of a character like Sam Gamgee: an inspiringly brave and moral figure who achieves great things sometimes in spite of his or her limitations. And you're absolutely correct that playing this kind of hero is independent of one's ability scores -- if there's anything on your character sheet that's relevant to it, it's just the alignment field. But @Oofta was pretty clearly talking about a "hero" in the older sense of a figure like Achilles or Beowulf: an outstanding doer of deeds, moral compass sold separately. And if you want to play a mighty warrior of this sort, then yes, it is absolutely a problem when, through no fault of your own, your character sheet says you only have a Strength of 11.

So before you start pointing fingers at anyone, please try to understand what is actually being discussed.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You're equivocating between two different meanings of the word "hero". You're talking about a "hero" in the modern sense of a character like Sam Gamgee: an inspiringly brave and moral figure who achieves great things sometimes in spite of his or her limitations. And you're absolutely correct that playing this kind of hero is independent of one's ability scores -- if there's anything on your character sheet that's relevant to it, it's just the alignment field. But @Oofta was pretty clearly talking about a "hero" in the older sense of a figure like Achilles or Beowulf: an outstanding doer of deeds, moral compass sold separately. And if you want to play a mighty warrior of this sort, then yes, it is absolutely a problem when, through no fault of your own, your character sheet says you only have a Strength of 11.

Why isn't it a problem for a wannabe Achilles when, through no fault of your own, your character sheet says your have a Strength lower than 20 and a level of 1?

If you can accept that Achilles has to do some mighty deeds before he can be a 20th level fighter, why can't you accept that he has to do mighty deeds before becoming inhumanly strong (Str 20)?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Good examples. When Rocky loses the fight against Apollo Creed, he's ecstatic because he went the distance against the national champ and showed Adrian (and himself) that he's not a hopeless loser like everyone thinks.

The drive to "be the best" isn't always about winning. Even Goku, in what I wholly agree is a ridiculous show, loses fights sometimes. It's about self-improvement, proving oneself to the world. Going the distance is Rocky's "win condition" from the beginning -- he makes that abundantly clear. And at the beginning, he's nowhere near good enough to do it. But he sets this goal, works hard to better himself, and accomplishes it at the end. That's a pretty elemental "be the best" plot even if he doesn't win. (And of course that's setting aside all the other sports movies, and even the other Rocky movies, where the hero does win.)

Luke Skywalker doesn't care about "beating" Darth Vader or being "the best"--he wants to bring down the Empire, save his friends, and (later on) redeem his father.

That's Luke in Return of the Jedi. His character arc is a textbook hero's journey (this is an observation wholly original to me and has never ever been made before ). In A New Hope, he starts off wanting to be an ace Imperial(!) fighter pilot, then "a Jedi like my father". And in Empire, he pretty emphatically does care about beating Vader. But as the trilogy reaches its conclusion, he learns that these things aren't what's really important. It's a great illustration of the places a player might ultimately go with this. Or, as with Rocky, they could just play it straight to the end. Nothing wrong with either approach.

Batman... clearly has issues (vengeance fixation, parental issues, sleeping upside-down like a bat), but wanting power for its own sake is not one of them.

One of the most common criticisms of Batman, both in- and out-of-universe, is that he's a self-obsessed control freak. He has spent a lifetime turning himself into a weapon. I hardly think it's a stretch to put him on the same spectrum as Rocky and Luke.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, it's not the stats that make a hero. It's the player.

Stats might contribute to the difference between "pin the medal on the returning hero" and "award the medal to the hero posthumously," though... ;P

Challenge: sketch out a group of three or four 9th level PCs with high stats (e.g. each one of them has two 18s and no stat under 14), who are so good that no 9th level PC I make with a high stat of 14 can meaningfully contribute to their adventures.

Under 5e Bounded Accuracy, a Kobold working with a party of 9th level uberPCs could occasionally contribute meaningfully to their success.

And if you want to play a mighty warrior of this sort, then yes, it is absolutely a problem when, through no fault of your own, your character sheet says you only have a Strength of 11.

How is it no fault of your own if you knew it was going to be random chargen when you sat down? Just say 'no.' Find another table where the DM will let you play a character you actually want to play - at least will let you put your highest random-rolled stat in STR or give you a mulligan if that highest rolled stat is 11...

 

[Satyrn]

Just a quick stab at this . . .

You mentioned earlier that the person who rolled the high stats wasn't happy with the situation, either. I've seen someone else here recently discuss the same situation, and they said the player with the high stats wasn't happy about it.

I've been the guy with the high stats in the same situation and I loved it - no, not really, I wasn't happy with it either. It sapped some fun out of the game for me.


So, yeah.