Why I Don't Like 3.5 Damage Resistance

[Piratecat]

My game is cooler with 3.5 DR. I love the feel of holy weapons actually being useful for something, and of unique materials counting. Even better, I can throw tough monsters at the group knowing that they aren't screwed just because I don't want to give them all +5 weapons.

 

[mmadsen]

Also, even if I were running a campaign with alignment, I'd prefer the nature of magical weapons (specifically "magical weapons +whatever number) to be some sort of generic thing that I can flesh out myself for my own campaign's purposes.

You can just as easily redefine "cold iron" to mean "kryptonite" as define "+3" to mean that.

I want to be able to say things like "in my campaign, the only +5 swords are pulled out of the spines of dragons... or created by high level wizards, of course."

Did someone just read The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save For Sacnoth?

 

[Deadguy]

Once upon a time, the only meaningful differentiation of D&D weapons was the '+''ness of it (or lack thereof). so, of course, we placed great store on having as big a plus weapon as possible. In D&D3.5 it now really means something to have weapons made of different materials, as well as having them magically enhanced. I can't help thinking that part of some people's discomfort with the revided DR rules is that they are still caught up with the notion that the pluses are the only important part of defining a weapon.

Practically, I admit I like the change. Planning ahead gives you advantages, but lacking the right tool doesn't make the fight impossible for warrior-type characters.

 

[Psion]

I like the new conventions except for one thing (well two, but this is the biggie):

I see no reason whatsoever to collapse "+x" into "magic" or "epic". IMC, I find things work just fine if you leave the old plus designations.

The minor bit is I don't like the way that fiends can't hurt each other (enough).

I do see how the golfbag syndrome could be a legitimate problem if you frequently exposed players to different DR creatures. But occasional use sees no major problems.

I also see no problem adding new "materials" as it were (which could also be conditions), again, in moderation.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well, this is the one gripe I had with the new DR system...that powerful magical weapons are not able to affect everything, magic being, as it is portrayed, a pretty unambiguous force in the D&D universe.

I created a simple house rule, having each bonus on a magic weapon reduce the DR of a given creature that couldn't be overcome by magic by 5.

As for fiends not being able to hurt each other...did they eliminate the rule that creatures with a certain DR can overcome their own DR with their natural attacks?

 

[BSF]

I don't like 3.5 DR because the party has to carry around 50 different weapons each of a different metal.

Then when fighting a creature the players are encouraged the metagame the PC knowledge of which metal affects which creature. If your best weapon is +3 you're probably using it and it either doesn't or does beat a DR/+X.

No, you don't need to carry around multiple weapons and I have yet to see a PC carry multiple versions just to bypass DR. (Things could change, I don't worry about what my players do.) Some players want to carry multiple weapons because they can't stand the thought of not being as efficient as possible.

This is a far cry from 1E where you couldn't even hurt an opponent with DR if you couldn't trump the DR. A high level fighter that was without his cool sword could be attacked by a werewolf and would likely lose. 3.0 DR would allow you to overwhelm DR with a less efficient weapon, but with DR 15, or 30, it was very difficult. With 3.5 and typed DR, you can be less efficient and still overwhelm DR. But the common werewolf is still very frightening to low level NPCs. DR 5/silver means that a warrior with a 14 strength and a short sword (which wouldn't be unreasonable for the town watch) is going to have a very difficult time doing meaningful damage to a lycanthrope before he is torn to shreds. By the same token, a party of PCs without any silver will potentially have a difficult, but not insurmountable, time trying to take out a lycanthrope. With silver weapons, then the encounter becomes much easier.

It is a nice way for me to throw a curveball at my PCs. A battle that should have been easy might make them break a sweat.

 

[Voadam]

As for fiends not being able to hurt each other...did they eliminate the rule that creatures with a certain DR can overcome their own DR with their natural attacks?

Yes except for magic DR. Alignment subtype allows you to pierce DR of that alignment so demons who are CE can pierce DR evil and DR chaotic that many LG celestials have but not DR good that most fiends have. Magic DR however usually imparts their blows as magical for DR purposes. Werewolves do not pierce the DR for silver DR creatures though.

 

[Mercule]

Well, this is the one gripe I had with the new DR system...that powerful magical weapons are not able to affect everything,

And this is the #1 reason why I love it.

Think of legends. The legends don't say "werewolves can be harmed only by silver... or magic." They just say "silver." Ditto for fae and iron.

Imagine the great lycanthrope hunter of legend, Fritz. When he's first starting out, he carries a silvered long sword. As he grows more powerful, he decides he needs an enchanted blade and commissions one.

The next time Fritz is called upon by a burgomeister to rid the area of werewolves, he says, "This talisman was specially forged to cut through werewolves," as he draws his sleek new cold iron sword ('cause he likes black).

Does Fritz look cool? Does he look like a legendary hunter of lycanthropes? Does he look heroic? No. He looks like the moron who brought a knife to a gun fight.

Even if you throw away the legends of silver and what-not, all you really are doing is saying that if you bring a LAW rocket into play, it trumps any mystic symbolism. Forget the screwdriver -- all you need is a hammer. Bigger and stronger is always better than intelligence and planning. Just more 'kewl toyz' with which to play and more 'power-ups' to gather.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Yes except for magic DR. Alignment subtype allows you to pierce DR of that alignment so demons who are CE can pierce DR evil and DR chaotic that many LG celestials have but not DR good that most fiends have. Magic DR however usually imparts their blows as magical for DR purposes. Werewolves do not pierce the DR for silver DR creatures though.

Hmm..weird.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And this is the #1 reason why I love it.

Think of legends. The legends don't say "werewolves can be harmed only by silver... or magic." They just say "silver." Ditto for fae and iron.

Imagine the great lycanthrope hunter of legend, Fritz. When he's first starting out, he carries a silvered long sword. As he grows more powerful, he decides he needs an enchanted blade and commissions one.

The next time Fritz is called upon by a burgomeister to rid the area of werewolves, he says, "This talisman was specially forged to cut through werewolves," as he draws his sleek new cold iron sword ('cause he likes black).

Does Fritz look cool? Does he look like a legendary hunter of lycanthropes? Does he look heroic? No. He looks like the moron who brought a knife to a gun fight.

Even if you throw away the legends of silver and what-not, all you really are doing is saying that if you bring a LAW rocket into play, it trumps any mystic symbolism. Forget the screwdriver -- all you need is a hammer. Bigger and stronger is always better than intelligence and planning. Just more 'kewl toyz' with which to play and more 'power-ups' to gather.

Yeah, sure...throw real-world legends into the game. That's really helpful. Not.

"Magic", as it exists in D&D, doesn't exist in real world legends about werewolves, vampires or demons. You always have weapons blessed by a saint, cursed by a devil, inhabited by some spirit, etc. Magic, as an unambiguous supernatural force, doesn't exist in any of those.

If you browse "standard" fantasy fare, though, you'll find magic as that kind of force...and you'll also find that magic is able to interact with, and injure, most other kinds of supernatural beings.

In contrast to what you seem to understand from my post, what I'm saying is that I prefer magic to have at least some effect on anything supernatural, be it a werewolf, a demon, an angel or a weird, tentacle-faced being from a fringe plane. Why? Because I like it that way...and apparently I'm not the only one. I'm not saying magic trumps anything...I'm saying having your weapon instilled with the mystical forces of the arcane makes it a little more effective in dealing damage to anything supernatural. I'm not throwing mystical symbolism out the window...I'm actually adding something to it.

What I'm not saying is that everybody has to see it that way.

Hope that's cleared up.

Oh, and by the way...I don't know what Monty Haul campaign burned you, or which players finally broke your nerves with their Diablo II playing style...but try to be so kind and not take it out of the hide of some fellow gamer whom you don't know, have never played with, and only judge by one post. It really helps keeping this neighbourhood friendly, you know? Thanks.