LokiDR said:
There is no other fighting base class that chooses feats as they progress. Sorceror and Wizard share the same list.
I won't argue that this is, indeed, a flaw. I have added "fully revise and seperate the Sorceror spell list" to my to-do list for my House Rules project (which just keeps growing, and growing, and growing *cue energizer bunny's fat cousin* ...)
A fighter defined by different skills? Not without cosmopolitan, multiclassing or cross class skills.
Not needfully -- though the Fighter, of all the classes, can most AFFORD side-issue feats like Cosmopolitan.
Maybe one fighter is a mounted warrior (ride skill, animal handling skill, mounted combat feats). Maybe another is a dedicated archer (craft: bowyer/fletcher, archery feats). Yet another might be the son of a peasant farmer, thrust into an adventurer's life when his edge-of-the-wilderness home is burned to the ground by a goblinoid invasion (profession: farmer, a touch of wilderness lore, maybe the Track feat (his village was on the edge of "the Great Forest" and most folks did a little hunting to supplement their diets) ... and focussed on simple weapons ... ShortSpear, for example).
Each of those "fighters" is quite different from each other, and the method is solely skills, feats, and choice of specific tactics (mounted, versus archery, versus non-Martial melee).
What differentiates a sorcer from a wizard? Same spells. The sorc throws a few more, the wiz knows a few more. You expect the same sorts of things from them both. At least wizards have specialization to differentiate between them.
The player brings their own style to the character. IF you, as a player, cannot MAKE your sorceror seem different from a run-of-the-mill wizard, then perhaps sorceror is not for
you ("you" used in a generic, nonspecific sense ofc).
Now, as I said above, I agree the sorceror should have gotten a different spell list, and perhaps some sorceror-specific spells (IOW, ONLY sorcerors and maybe bards can get them).
As for specialisation, one of the things I HAVE done IMC is, allow sorcerors to specialise.
For fast-and-dirty rules, I decided the costs (in terms of excluded schools, etc) are the same as for Wizards. Now, granted, that's less of a problem for a sorceror overall.
However, the gain is (slightly) less; the sorceror KNOWS a single extra spell, per spell level ... from (of course) their specialty school. So a sorceror with an especial "knack" for, oh, Illusion spells, will "know" one more spell at each spell level, than a "generalist" sorceror. The trick being, at least one spell at each spell level will be an Illusion spell, and some spells the sorceror will NEVER be able to develop, nor use wands of, etc.
A smart players will make smart decisions. Spells like sleep just wont show up, unless the player enjoys problems later.
Okay, sleep won't show up, you say?
Funny, my first sorceror got sleep; even when it became less useful in and of itself, I never regretted the choice.
On top of which, I think it is the utter height of absurdity to presume that ALL smart players will always make the SAME decision. There are multiple ways to optimise your sorceror's spell list, without taking the same things each time.
The trick is, pick a "schtick" ... soemthing that defines how YOUR sorceror will approach spellcasting. The feat "Spell Thematics" form the FR (Magic of Faerun, IIRC), is a good choice for such a character.
One "schtick" is, the charm/mind-control theme. Pick spells by and large that give you control or influence over yoru foes.
Another is the Illusion theme; lots of illusions, not much for direct "suck fire and die" spells.
Another (my personal favorite, not for power but for FUN factor) is the "pick an element, any element" schtick -- all five Elemental Substitutions, and every spell that does damage, selected FIRST for an elemental-damage-type tag, and SECOND for other benefits (the sort of characetr who will NOT take Magic Missile, but will prefer Burning Hands, or "Ice Dagger" form MoF).
Admit it, some spells are better than others, and those will show up all too often.
The same will happen with wizards, too. Oh, they might have other spells int heir SPELLBOOK ... but what spells do they PREPARE every day, eh? For first level ... MM, MM, MM, and more MM. *shrug*
There should be a way for a sorceror to choose other spells without slapping themselves in the forehead later, saying "I wish I hadn't taken that".
There is. It's called a wish spell (precedent in the FR, specifically the Simbul). OR having some forethought.
A few spells have a narrow window of applicability; within that window they are THE spell to have (at 1st to 4th level, Sleep will be MUCH more useful, 9 times out ot 10, than Magic Missile). The spells make up for this by falling into disfavor outside of that "window of greatness".
I agree sorcerors need their own spell list. I diagree the clas itself is without value, and in fact I think it's FINE the way it is, but perhaps it's "fun factor" -could- be improved without hurting overall game balance, especially WRT the wizard.
How could you tell they weren't wizards?
Dunno about anyone else, but as a GM, I tedn to let a spellcraft check determine certain things ... like what general "type" of caster they are (arcane, divine, etc), and where there are multiple possibilities, either outright which class they are, or (more often), which primary attribute their class uses (i.e., a wizard will be "Arcane, INT", a sorceror or bard woudl be "Arcane, CHA" ... and so on).
This is not a question of every sorceror being the same, but a question of sorceror not being very different from wizard. Good players can always make up for bad classes and still have fun.
The first 3E character I played was a sorceror. One of the other players had a wizard (half-elf on my part, full elf on his part). IC and OOC, we actually -enjoyed- the interplay between the two characters' abilities. The wizard could pretty well rely on my sorceror to have a couple "blast 'em" spells, as well as cover the more OBSCURE utility spells in my spells-known list.
Whereas, I didn't have to worry about wether or not to take Haste (the wizard did), or Fly (wizard, again) ... darned useful spells, but I didn't have to spend precious spells-known slots on them. Less-obscure utility spells (Identify, Alarm, etc) were also covered by the Wizard (who, for combat, got into using Buffs,a dn Poly'd into a troll or similar big-n-nasty ... eek ...
).
False. See TaB, sorcerors and picking spells.
One article in one place by one person ... I hardly call that a definitive measure of the entire spectrum of sorceror options.
Compare druid and cleric. Very similar classes, both full spellcasters. They are not often confused for one another. What can a person notice over a short time to tell them that a character is a sorceror vs a wizard. That is the style issue.
Sorceror: higher Charisma (thats houdl be readily and IMMEDIATELY apparent after only a few minute's interaction). No spellbooks.
Wizard: smarter (talk to the fellow for a while, that should start to become apparent); big spellbooks.
That's the quick, at-a-glance difference.
And, in THOSE terms ... no, there is NOT always an apparent, visible difference between a Cleric and a Druid. Many "druid-only" spells are also DOMAIN spells for -some- clerics.
I agree the sorceror needs some work ... but not a "toss it it's useless" level, like you at least -seem- to be projecting.
[EDIT: hit the post buutton too soon]
