D&D 5E Why I Think D&DN is In Trouble

[Zardnaar]

Two minor mechanics (one class-specific) easily excised from the game.
These these are your dealbreaking 'horrible 4e mechanics' that got ported into Next?

Unified class attack bonuses like 4E, neo vancian being reskinned 4E daily powers replacing classic vancian that was in BECMI-3rd ed are also big ones. Second wind on the fighter,gonzo/annoying races (Dragonborn, tiefling, Kender), boring races with no racial penalty, over night healing etc.

 

[Mistwell]

In general the whole apathy thing for 5E will kill it.

If there is one claim that is substantially damaged by the Hot Games list, it's this claim.

We don't have to speculate about whether there is apathy over 5e. The Hot Games list may have a weak or no relationship to total future sales. It may have a weak or no relationship to total players. It may detect more negative feelings than positive feelings. But the one absolute thing we know from that list, with no doubt at all, with absolute certainty, is that people are not apathetic about 5e.

It's the most talked about RPG in the world right now, by a wide margin. It's 17 points higher than the next thing on the list, and the thing below that is less than 17 points total. That's a landslide margin. People don't talk that much about things they are apathetic about. By definition, if you're apathetic about something, you don't comment about it much. It's part of what that word means, that you show no interest, enthusiasm, or concern about it. You might say something one or two times, but that would be it. You'd never go on and on about something you're apathetic about, because then you're not apathetic about it.

So no, if there's one thing we know, it won't be apathy that hurts 5e. That's the one area they have covered - people are not in general apathetic about 5e. They have an opinion, and they are talking about those opinions a lot - more than they're talking about anything else.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Unified class attack bonuses like 4E, neo vancian being reskinned 4E daily powers replacing classic vancian that was in BECMI-3rd ed are also big ones. Second wind on the fighter,gonzo/annoying races (Dragonborn, tiefling, Kender), boring races with no racial penalty, over night healing etc.

Unified class attack bonuses are an outgrowth of bounded accuracy, a fundamental design goal of 5e that (in my opinion) solves all sorts of problems. If you don't like bounded accuracy, and prefer the increasing BAB of 3rd and 4th, then yes, 5e is probably not for you.

Neo Vancian versus Classic Vancian? Can you explain?

 

[Mistwell]

Call it what you will but Hit Dice are Healing Surges, which I can't stand,

Healing surges could be spent during combat. They were like a power-up, and that was the thing people objected to the most.

Hit dice are spend during a 1 hour rest. They represent recovery when outside of combat, and can be easily interrupted during that 1 hour period of time.

So, while I think they're in the same general realm of concepts, I do not think they are the same thing.

and so is Damage on a Miss.

We've already debated this to death, but 3e had some damage on a miss (not as much as 4e did, but both editions had it), and I suspect it's out of the final rules anyway. It was only really one ability anyway, easily houseruled if it does end up in the final rules. I hardly think one ability represents a version of the game that is borrowing heavily from 4e - that implies a heck of a lot more than a couple of abilities.

 

[Zardnaar]

Unified class attack bonuses are an outgrowth of bounded accuracy, a fundamental design goal of 5e that (in my opinion) solves all sorts of problems. If you don't like bounded accuracy, and prefer the increasing BAB of 3rd and 4th, then yes, 5e is probably not for you.

Neo Vancian versus Classic Vancian? Can you explain?

Spells no longer scale with level, the wizard class basically sucks at higher level from most accounts and testing and the new spells are basically refluffed 4E daily powers.

Its not like damage dealing spells were actually broken in 3.5 and most of the classics like lightning bolt, fireball etc were more or less unchanged with d6 damage/level. It is basically spitting in the face of anyone who liked D&D before 2008 and also invalidates a lot of previous D&D material which was one reason 4E was rejected. 3.5 era shapechange magic and spell DCs were borked, direct damage not so much. Maybe with enough splat books and metamagic but that is more a problem of metamagic than ye olde magic missile, fireball etc.

 

[Mistwell]

Unified class attack bonuses like 4E

It's unified, but proficiency is nothing like the 4e system. If anything, it has more in common with 2e.

neo vancian being reskinned 4E daily powers

4e wasn't vancian at all. This however, is "vancian enough" for many people. It's also definitely not "powers", which implies a supers game and also covers all the classes. No, these are actual spells, reserved just for spellcasters, and not reminiscent of the negative connotations of the word "powers".

replacing classic vancian that was in BECMI-3rd ed are also big ones.

Isn't the same as most editions for the Cleric? It's certainly not a new invention to 4e.

Second wind on the fighter

I agree it's similar, but this time it's reserved to one class, and makes more sense for that class.

gonzo/annoying races (Dragonborn, tiefling, Kender),

Those are all fro 3e, and mostly 2e as well. Hardly a 4e-ism.

boring races with no racial penalty

I disagree that they are boring, but yes they have no racial penalty. I think claiming that's a "horrible" thing from 4e is quite the exaggeration.

over night healing etc.

That's a 3e-ism. Heck, it was usually a 2e-ism as well. The versions of the game accomplished that in different ways, but who are we kidding here, most games either started out or evolved to be over-night full healing one way or the other anyway.

 

[Mistwell]

Spells no longer scale with level

Woah woah woah. Hold on a second. First, yes they do (see below). Second, that is NOT Vancian. There was never anything Vancian about spells scaling. Some spells scaled, others did not, it was particular to the edition, and there was no unified theme throughout the prior editions establishing such a tradition and it sure as heck wasn't ever considered part of the "Vancian" nature of the spells.

the wizard class basically sucks at higher level from most accounts and testing

I disagree, but again, that has nothing to do with "Vancian".

and the new spells are basically refluffed 4E daily powers.

And that, my friend, is something that needs serious substantiation - not just a couple, but if you're going to say they are all "basically" like 4e spells, you need to back that up. I think it's an incredibly baseless claim. They are nothing like 4e. 4e had a massive amount of control-type spells in there, and 5e has a serious return to the roots of classic D&D spells that is entirely different from the 4e approach. So I want to see a big list from you backing up that claim.

And, none of this has anything to do with "vancian" casting. I am questioning if you even know what that phrase means, since your support for your claim didn't relate in any way to the vancian nature of spellcasters in D&D.

It is basically spitting in the face of anyone who liked D&D before 2008

Ah, and here we go, with the hyperbolic "spitting in the face" type claims.

and also invalidates a lot of previous D&D material

First of all, attack spells DO scale in 5e. For example, here is the entry for fireball: "At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each level above 3rd. " That is scaling.

Second, there are lots of damaging spells in 5e, and the higher the level of the spell the more damage it does. Every spell level for the mage has a more powerful spell that does more damage than the prior level of spells, just like prior versions of the game.

I'm starting to wonder, have you actually played a high level mage at all? Or even read the most recent playtest document in depth to examine how the spells work?

 

[Wulfgar76]

Spells no longer scale with level,

Thank goodness for that.

the wizard class basically sucks at higher level from most accounts.

Whose accounts? When the wizard in our group drops a spell it is usually turns a challenging encounter into a cakewalk. What more do you want?

It is basically spitting in the face of anyone who liked D&D before 2008

It is? Everyone in my group has been playing since the late 80s and has the fondest memories of 2nd edition. We all agree D&DN comes closest to recreating that experience of any edition since.

and also invalidates a lot of previous D&D material which was one reason 4E was rejected.

It does? If that previous material was broken spellcasters, spells, metamagic feats and save DCs – then good riddance.

 

[tangleknot]

Everyone in my group has been playing since the late 80s and has the fondest memories of 2nd edition. We all agree D&DN comes closest to recreating that experience of any edition since.

Really? I got to say D&D 3.0 was a hard pill to swallow. On one hand you had much more flexibility in character creation, on the other the game felt like a video game and less like... Well less like D&D.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Really? I got to say D&D 3.0 was a hard pill to swallow. On one hand you had much more flexibility in character creation, on the other the game felt like a video game and less like... Well less like D&D.

Yes – for the following reasons: Gridless theater-of-the-mind combats. Faster less 'grindy' battles.