Why is charisma associated with spellcasting?

[orsal]

This is simple.

Charisma is a measure of how kewl you are.

Magic is kewl.

Problem resolved!

Except that it doesn't explain why all spellcasters don't use Cha.

Personally, I think it would make more sense to switch divine and spontaneous arcane casters -- let the sorcerors use Wis and the clerics use Cha. Charisma is the capability to influence others; divine casters cast spells by petitioning others (the gods for clerics, natural spirits for druids) to intervene on their behalf. Sorcerors, however, are much like wizards, except for the distinction between intuitive sense and accomplished learning -- which is pretty much the distinction between wisdom and intelligence.

 

[smootrk]

Except that it doesn't explain why all spellcasters don't use Cha.

Personally, I think it would make more sense to switch divine and spontaneous arcane casters -- let the sorcerors use Wis and the clerics use Cha. Charisma is the capability to influence others; divine casters cast spells by petitioning others (the gods for clerics, natural spirits for druids) to intervene on their behalf. Sorcerors, however, are much like wizards, except for the distinction between intuitive sense and accomplished learning -- which is pretty much the distinction between wisdom and intelligence.

That actually makes a lot of sense. How would a change like this upset the system (as in all the existing material, classes, races, etc.) Would it be necessary to 'reset' the entire game to make this change?

 

[delericho]

Except that it doesn't explain why all spellcasters don't use Cha.

Intelligence allows you to do things by gaining knowledge of how things work and applying that knowledge, just as a scientist can influence the world.

Wisdom allows the caster to understand his god (or nature), and to use the serenity granted by that understanding to channel the power of the divine.

Charisma allows one to impose one's inherent kewl upon the universe. It doesn't require that the caster know what he's doing, or understand what he's doing... he just does it.

 

[Henry]

I seem to recall, even in 1st edition AD&D Hitler was mentioned as an 18 CHA individual. That definitely ain't pretty Gary Gygax is talking about. So 3E takes it one step further, and imagines an individual who can use personal force of personality to bend magic to his very whim. As someone once said on these forums, CHA is to WIS as STR is to CON.

 

[Slife]

What I've been toying around with for a while is a con-based caster...

 

[Tonguez]

So you use your charisma to interact with the universal personality of magic to "convince it" to do something...

"Yo, reality, get up and roast some dudes with a fireball, 'cuz I'm way cooler than you, reality!"

The next time I play a Scorcerer he is gonna be wearing a balck leather jacket and dark sunglasses. All somatic components will be replaced by a flick of the fingers

 

[BiggusGeekus]

D&D, as a game, never really came to terms with the Charisma attribute. Currently, Charisma crosses over into what we might normally think of as willpower or ego, but those are sort of also covered by Wisdom.

If I had a time machine, the very first thing I would do is go back to 1973 and try to convince Arneson and Gygax that Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma should be Perception, Willpower, and Magic. And have them re-write the rules using those terms as starting points.

Then I'd kill my own grandfather, just to see what a paradox looks like.

-BG

PS Well, maybe not. He's a nice old bird. Do you cause a paradox if you kill your own second cousin?

 

[billd91]

I seem to recall, even in 1st edition AD&D Hitler was mentioned as an 18 CHA individual. That definitely ain't pretty Gary Gygax is talking about. So 3E takes it one step further, and imagines an individual who can use personal force of personality to bend magic to his very whim. As someone once said on these forums, CHA is to WIS as STR is to CON.

And I think even today, with 3.5 conceptions and more recent biographical studies (like Ian Kershaw's), you'd have a good argument that Hitler wouldn't even have an 18 Charisma, but lots of ranks and skill focus on bluff and perform (oratory).

Fact is, we have a better idea now that, in person, Hitler was tedious as hell because he was always going on about the same crap, day after day.

 

[Tonguez]

PS Well, maybe not. He's a nice old bird. Do you cause a paradox if you kill your own second cousin?

Only if your from Arkansas

 

[ShadowX]

This isn't even the beginning of what is wrong with stats and spellcasting. Why does intelligence help a wizard cast spells? I can see providing bonus spells or even limiting what spell levels you can cast, but why does it actually make your spells more powerful in terms of DC? What about wisdom which makes little sense for druids and rangers if we want to explain charisma in 3rd edition terms.

Obviously, the designers of 3rd edition wanted to give charisma some purpose, that is why there is a proliferation of abilities, particularly for monsters, that also depend on charisma. However, with the advent of social interaction skills, it seems a perfect time to just dump charisma. Of course, other simplifications of the ability score system would be nice, but D&D has a lot of history that precludes certain measures.