D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[Staffan]

I don't think 4e outright suggests "minionizing" monsters, but there are some entries that are clearly intended that way. For example, these are the ogres from the Monster Manual:

Ogre Thug - Minion 11
Ogre Bludgeoneer - Minion 16
Ogre Savage - Brute 8
Ogre Skirmisher - Skirmisher 8
Ogre Warhulk - Elite Brute 11

The Bludgeoneer, in particular, has a description that says "Bludgeoneers typically fall under the domination of stronger and smarter monsters such as hags, oni, or giants. Left to their own devices, they simply beat enemies to death with their clubs."

If you look at the suggested encounter groups for ogres, you won't see any ogre bludgeoneers there. However, if you look under Earth Giant, you'll see a suggested 17th level group being 1 earth titan, 2 hill giants, 2 war trolls, and 4 ogre bludgeoneers.

There's a similar thing going with orcs, where the listed orcs are:
Orc drudge - Minion 4
Orc warrior - Minion 9
Orc raider - Skirmisher 3
Orc berserker - Brute 4
Orc Eye of Gruumsh - Controller (Leader) 5
Orc Bloodrager - Elite Brute 7
Orc Chieftain - Elite Brute (Leader) 8

The Orc warrior shows up both among other orcs (though usually with the higher-powered versions, not with raiders or berserkers), but they also show up as minions for creatures with more "natural" strength – such as ogres.

You see the same thing with lots of humanoids, though not with all of them (there's no higher-level minion kobold for example).

 

[Thomas Shey]

My favorite way to handle mooks personally is some sort of mob/swarm/battle group mechanic. I think individually representing significant numbers of monsters/NPCs slows down play way too much. As a GM I just do not want to be going through 15+ individual turns like ever. I do want to have fights against those large groups though. The Dune Quickstart taught me that even if a single success means an enemy is taken out large numbers of enemies are still a bear to deal with.

The only issue with this is it can produce some odd artifacts when dealing with a battlemap. It probably is more functional with zones and the like.

 

[Campbell]

Overall I have no issues with experienced characters still having issues with large numbers of goblins or orcs. I also have no issues if they are the sort who fight ancient wyrms and balors every Tuesday. I have issues when games try to mix the two. Pick one please.

 

[Garthanos]

Those are all fine, and I can see a lot of great stories coming from that idea, but they're not the only alternatives. Plenty of people played D&D beyond "heroic tier" in the past and continue to do so today without making the martial types demigods (at least not without gear).

Magic item dependency feels like only exactly one story (see Perseus) in 4e you actually had a choice (and Inherent bonuses helped)some of my favorite Warlord epic destinies are not you explicitly becoming divine but perhaps ironically becoming legendary kings (who in a fantasy world are on the same order?) .
But I got the names for inspiration of powerful Martial characters directly from D&D 2e (Beowulf wasn't a Demigod but we could say Alexander the Great "was" or atleast made the claim), but it felt like the game failed to deliver on that premise/promise til 4e. And in 1e even by 9th level without some DM provided relic my 9th level fighter was like the wizards sidekick (one on his way to becoming far more powerful than myth and legend) and similarly in 3e the Druids Bear was more effective in dealing with those swarms of orcs.

 

[Garthanos]

Overall I have no issues with experienced characters still having issues with large numbers of goblins or orcs. I also have no issues if they are the sort who fight ancient wyrms and balors every Tuesday. I have issues when games try to mix the two. Pick one please.

Nods, basically the guy who needs an army to fight squadrons of orcs for them is not really a peer with the guy who can transform into a gargantuan sentient fire breathing tank.

 

[Garthanos]

If your entire position is " I prefer that a level 1 party can face an ogre and that a level 10 party could face the exact same dozen ogres (same monster, same stat block) and that it still works. "

It has been pointed out that it actually doesn't work in 5e... regardless of it's claim carbon copy stamps in quantity just make for boring tedious fights the opposite of this threads title in a sense.

 

[Garthanos]

To each their own. I want the world to make sense except in those instances we've agreed it doesn't.

"except in those instances we've agreed it doesn't" is such a wide open escape clause you give yourself.

To me the guy with normal mundane physical capability being able to confront and kill a giant supergenius flying fire breathing monster armored like a tank with a small piece of steel while somehow being limited to incredibly mundane athletic stunts otherwise is not really plausible, its an incongruity.

 

[Justice and Rule]

My favorite way to handle mooks personally is some sort of mob/swarm/battle group mechanic. I think individually representing significant numbers of monsters/NPCs slows down play way too much. As a GM I just do not want to be going through 15+ individual turns like ever. I do want to have fights against those large groups though. The Dune Quickstart taught me that even if a single success means an enemy is taken out large numbers of enemies are still a bear to deal with.

The only issue with this is it can produce some odd artifacts when dealing with a battlemap. It probably is more functional with zones and the like.

The PF2 Troop rules are kind of like that? I have yet to use a Troop in my game, honestly, and Paizo hasn't given any rules for building them (though I think someone online figured out the formula because it was rather simple). I haven't used them yet, but they look somewhat alright for hordes and infantry units.

Nods, basically the guy who needs an army to fight squadrons of orcs for them is not really a peer with the guy who can transform into a gargantuan sentient fire breathing tank.

I mean, that exposes a whole different problem with 5E, because if you are a martial that fight is going to very different than if you were a caster and can cast some high-end area-of-effect spell that will dunk on these things. Trying to fight these as a martial character would be a deadly slog.

 

[Mordhau]

I mean, that exposes a whole different problem with 5E, because if you are a martial that fight is going to very different than if you were a caster and can cast some high-end area-of-effect spell that will dunk on these things. Trying to fight these as a martial character would be a deadly slog.

Yep. Fights against largish numbers of opponents are seriously frustrating when you're a Fighter (although it's even worse for a Rogue with their one attack), because there's nothing you can really do to adjust to the situation.

It's one reason I've used 13th Age style mooks in 5e with their carryover damage.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yep. Fights against largish numbers of opponents are seriously frustrating when you're a Fighter (although it's even worse for a Rogue with their one attack), because there's nothing you can really do to adjust to the situation.

It's one reason I've used 13th Age style mooks in 5e with their carryover damage.

It's only really even feasible with Feats. I cannot imagine trying it without things like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. Even a Barb's resistance would start to run into problems when you are likely get hit 3-4 times a turn.