Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Ahglock]

The weird part here is why anyone would compare a nondamage-oriented Wizard power for damage! That's just plain bizarre. Hey! Disintegrate does more damage than Warlock 19 powers! It does more damage than Rogue 19 powers. It's even better than the Ranger's Wounding Whirlwind! That's sacrilegious! Wizards are totally strikers, too!

.

Disintegrate may be too good of a striker power IMO for a controller. Its hard to say since virtually all of the striker dailies have additional effects outside of damage. Wounding whirlwind is actually a burst the rest seem to push, blind, daze, stun etc. Two in one shot is the only example where it only does damage, and I flat out think that power sucks for a 19 daily. Still disintegrate looks better to me than two in one shot and I don't like that.

I don't think it is relevant that with a certain path with a certain destiny its damage might blow disintegrate out of the water. A non striker should have to work for it, like take an appropriate path and destiny in order to match a non specced striker at striking. A striker should not have to work to beat out the controller in strikeing.

 

[KarinsDad]

There seems to be this misconception that AoE damage only hurts minions. I frankly don't understand it. Especially when you're talking about no-friendly-fire AoE, it adds up to a significant portion of all the damage dealt in an encounter unless you're fighting a very small group of enemies.

I agree with this about no-friendly-fire AoEs.

I don't quite think it is as true with friendly fire AoEs. Typically, at least for my PC Wizard, I can get maybe two or three AoEs in during an encounter, but I usually have only two, maybe three at the most enemies in the area. The rest of the time, my Wizard is relying on single target attacks because the enemies are interspersed with the PCs (trying to flank the Defender for example).

The PC Ranger, on the other hand, gets two attacks per round almost every round (he typically only doesn't if he targets a single foe with two attacks and kills it on the first one). For the small amount of damage that the Wizard does extra on the AoE rounds, the Ranger easily makes up for on rounds that the Wizard cannot do AoEs.

That's not true of no-friendly-fire AoEs as you state.

People don't seem to get HOW very potent Clerical no-friendly-fire AoEs really are.

 

[Goumindong]

There seems to be this misconception that AoE damage only hurts minions. I frankly don't understand it. Especially when you're talking about no-friendly-fire AoE, it adds up to a significant portion of all the damage dealt in an encounter unless you're fighting a very small group of enemies.

Not really, no. Unless the combat goes significantly longer than it ought to be. And by then you are losing.

 

[keterys]

No, you cannot. If you do this you will get results which tell you nothing about the game. If you want results which tell you nothing about the game then go right ahead and compare the powers.

Yes, you can, and even should, to maintain power balance.

I suspect that understanding that will be one of the steps that takes a while, however. It's not like previous editions of the game where class A might have better powers than class B, because class B had better base attack, or saves, or more extra special abilities.

Everyone is on the same powers template. Multiclassing and Eternal Seeker mean that you need to consider that anyone can get any ability from any class.

 

[Goumindong]

Yes, you can, and even should, to maintain power balance.

I suspect that understanding that will be one of the steps that takes a while, however. It's not like previous editions of the game where class A might have better powers than class B, because class B had better base attack, or saves, or more extra special abilities.

Everyone is on the same powers template. Multiclassing and Eternal Seeker mean that you need to consider that anyone can get any ability from any class.

1. No, you can't. If you maintain "power balance" you will screw everything else.

2. No, they can only get class abilities from any class if those class abilities are transferred from the original when multiclassing. E.G. you can multiclass to rogue or ranger and get sneak attack/hunters quarry one round/encounter.

They can get paragon abilities but they may or may not be useful. E.G. Blood Mage powers which specify wizard spells.

They also suffer from MAD[pumping at least two stats to get good attack rolls] and multiple implement/weapon syndrome.

 

[Zurai]

Two in one shot is the only example where it only does damage, and I flat out think that power sucks for a 19 daily. Still disintegrate looks better to me than two in one shot and I don't like that.

Level 19 ranger: +6 dex mod, +4 bow, +2 weapon focus, +3 sly hunter, +2d6 hunter's quarry. Two shots at 40 range for 4d10+2d6+30 damage, average 59. One miss yields 2d10+2d6+15+0.5*(2d10+15), average 46. Two misses yields 0.5*(4d10+30), average 26.

Level 19 wizard: +6 int mod, +4 implement. One shot at 10 range for 5d10+10 and a minimum of 15 damage from ongoing damage, average 52.5. A miss yields 3d10+10 and at least 5 damage from ongoing damage, for 31.5 average damage.

So Two-in-One Shot has a much longer range and does more damage unless both shots miss or the ongoing damage for Disintegrate goes on a long time (don't forget that it's a Daily spell, so you're likely to save it for the Elites or Solos which so happen to have save bonuses).

 

[keterys]

1. No, you can't. If you maintain "power balance" you will screw everything else.

Let's just agree to disagree then. I'm sure we can both be quietly convinced the other is completely wrong without bringing it up again.

 

[Roxlimn]

Sly Hunter doesn't always apply, though. Two in One Shot is hard to average because it's got lots of fiddly bits. Assuming 50% chance to miss for both:

0.5 x 16 + 0.5 x 0.75 x 16 + 0.5 x 0.25 x 8 = 15

+

0.5 x 8 + 0.5 x 0.5 x 16 + 0.5 x 0.5 x 8 = 14

+ 0.75 x 7 = 5.25

average appears to be 34.25 (includes Sly Hunter bonus)

For Disintegrate (assuming Solo with great saves)

0.5 x (37.5 + 12.5 (+small amount) + 6.25 (+small amount))
+
0.5 x (18.75 + 6.25)

average appears to be 40.625

 

[Goumindong]

Let's just agree to disagree then. I'm sure we can both be quietly convinced the other is completely wrong without bringing it up again.

How about this. You tell me in what situation a wizard having Astral Storm and the Cleric having Meteor swarm would be balanced given what the Wizard could do with Astral Storm.

Tell me in what situation firestorm would be reasonable if you could bolster it and use other control to keep enemies in it?

Tell me in what situation, given the powers of the wizard any of this makes sense?

 

[keterys]

I do believe you just summarized the problems people have with astral storm and firestorm being so much better