Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Roxlimn]

keterys:

No. That kind of design philosophy leads to failure. Remember caster level and BAB? You know, the bits of design that seemed to make sense on their own but together trashed whatever equal Fighter/Mage you tried to make out of core 3e classes?

On the face of it, all classes progressing at equal attack bonus looks unfair for the Fighter. It SEEMS as if that Wizards are just as good in melee combat as a Fighter. That's how it is for these myopic viewpoints. It seems like something, when really, it's not.

Goumindong:

Actually, most stuns do allow you to hit the guy. That's how you kill Orcus - you stunlock him into oblivion.

Stun condition is not the same as Helpless condition. They're separate entries on the condition list.

 

[Samurai]

Double Astral Storm in the first round?!?!? Yowzers. It's good for a Cleric, but double Astrals is just so, so, strong. This prayer would be super powerful as a spell.

Wait, so the problem is "these spells would be broken but they aren't because you cant combine them with things that make many wizard spells really strong?"

For a few feats, the Cleric can multiclass to Wizard and get a Wizard Paragon Path (say, Bloodmage) and the Archmage Epic Destiny. He can heal, he can use the best spells from both Wizard and Cleric, Bolster them, and repeat them thanks to Archmage, all while wearing heavy armor.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I find it amusing that you think that the paragon paths and epic destinies in the PHB are all that you're going to see.

Pretend that there's a 'High Hierophant' epic destiny that is exactly like Archmage, but for clerics. Does the world end?

Hint: If it does, the problem isn't with the epic destiny, it's with the power.

The problem with this reasoning is that the non-wizard got actual class abilities that improved their ability to fulfill their role (marking, healing word, curse/quarry/sneak attack and so on), the wizard, however, has no true abilities in this vein (the implement powers are nice, but they're more add-ons like channel divinity, not an always active ability).

So, their "shtick" is AoE - and since there's multiclassing, they had to reduce the power, just like picking up other classes powers don't serve you that well, because you lack the synergies with the class abilities.

To give the wizard something back, however they seemingly have their real meat in feats (spell focus, second implement) and, of course, their epic destiny (archmage).

The obvious problem with this is, of course, that they're locked down in their feat/destiny selection.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Minigiant]

This "Meteor Swarm vs. Astral Storm" annoys me a little. I don't knot about you but if my wizard could cast Astral Storm, he'd still pick Greater Ice Storm or Legions Hold. Lower damage plus effect beats Pure damage in my spellbook. Damage ain't my job. And I'm sure when cleric get a decent leader 20 daily, they would be using Astral Storm either. Pure damage AOE stinks.

 

[Roxlimn]

Samurai:

1. You need to reread the Blood Mage PP and the Archmage Epic Destiny
2. High Int characters don't want to use heavy armor in the first place

 

[keterys]

So... the argument is that everyone else's powers are allowed to follow a semblance of balance, but the wizard's powers aren't, because they designed it in such a way that they can't, because the wizard doesn't get actual class features.

Yeah, I'm back to the let's agree to disagree.

This discussion totally reaffirmed my desire to see some more controller classes made, though.

I did make one mistake earlier, though - if the High Hierophant might break the game like that, there's a decent chance the problem is with _Archmage_, not just the power.

 

[Roxlimn]

That's like saying that needing to balance Rogue powers with the fact that they can acquire CA and Sneak Attack makes Rogues broken.

Wizard powers HAVE to be considered in light of class features - things like implement mastery, Battle Mage Action or Bolstering Blood. This is EXACTLY the same as balancing a cleric healing power with his Healing Lore in mind, or designing a Rogue power with Sneak Attack in mind.

 

[keterys]

Rogue powers look fine to me that I've seen so far. For example, compare Dazing Strike and Thundering Wrath.

Battle Mage Action and Bolstering Blood aren't wizard class features. Implement Mastery is, though

I feel bad for the poor cleric if all his healing powers heal Wis less compared to the Warlord because the cleric has healing lore. Except, they don't seem to. I'm sure there was some way that tied into 'Wizard AoE deals less damage' though.

It doesn't really matter, though - I'll never take meteor swarm or expect to see a wizard take it. That's fine. Better to have a few duds than crazy overpowered stuff. There are lots of other good choices. I think Legion's Hold compares fine to Astral Storm, much like Evards compares to Fire Storm. They're very different, but they're close enough.

 

[Roxlimn]

Bolstering Blood in particular, is a feature that only works on Wizard and Bloodmage powers. Yes, I kind of think that that's relevant.

 

[keterys]

It's totally relevant. It's just not a wizard feature. Not all wizards take that paragon path. You can't argue a case for a wizard power under the assumption it has that path, nor declare a power unbalanced if you have that path.

All that says is that the path may have a problem.