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Why is flight considered a game breaker?

Rule 1: The PCs are not the smartest/most powerful creatures in the game world until they max their levels.

Rule 2: Anything the PCs have thought of an NPC has thought of.

Rule 3: Dragons have really good senses, and consider PC in the air to be lunch.

Ah, the "DM-player arms race" approach.

flying being a problem is bad DMing only. If your players always just fly across the chasm, they dont want to deal with the chasm, so dont put them in your adventures.

Wow! This has led me to a great epiphany!

If my players always solve a problem in the most expedient way they can think of, that must mean they don't want to deal with problems, so I shouldn't put problems in my adventures. No challenges and nothing to do! The world is a utopia and the player characters lead lives of untroubled bliss! The perfect adventure!

Next time I run a game, I'm totally doing this. The whole session will consist of me and my players holding hands in a circle and singing.

...stop being a slave to what is in the books and realize that the purpose of the DM is to run the game, not be a second rate computer.

I am not a slave to what is in the books. Therefore, I can strip out fly spells from my game with a clear conscience.
 
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That's my main problem with it. It's not tactical. Fly isn't a game breaker.

It's a genre-breaker. I don't play D&D to play Superheroes. That's what I've got my copy of Mutants & Masterminds for.


Hm, let's think about this.

- Peter Pan and Tinkerbell
- The protagonist of the Dragon and the George
- Several characters in the Xanth book have a form of flight as their spell
- The characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
- Perseus wears Hermes' winged sandals and a cap of invisibility, making him a classic munchkin
- Klone from the cartoon Blackstar, by growing wings
- Airbenders
- Dhoulmagus

My thinking is that it's actually pretty common whenever you have a setting with lots of magic. It's not as common in legendary England, Middle-Earth, or Conan's prehistorical Earth.
 

Saying that if a DM has problems with Flight-capable PCs that he's a bad GM is a bit insulting.

Apparently some folks have never been taken by surprise or advantage of by the players. It happens.


Setting things on fire can totally throw an adventure plan out of whack. Oftentimes, it can be a really good idea for the PCs to light a place on fire.

Suddenly, the BBEG and his friends are burnt up. No fuss, no muss. And if your PCs are motivated by more than XP and Money, they don't really care that treasure is destroyed, because as "Heroes" the King and Village will reward them for their good works in their own way.

The same can be said for flying, regardless of the mechanism. It's not the combat that matters, its all the "traditional" gaming stuff the PCs can skip and bypass.

If your focus is on combat, or XP or loot, then bypassing encounters is something the PCs miss out on. If the PCs actually studied the Art of War, bypassing encounters is good strategy to the success of the quest.

it is the sign of a game problem when the GM has to start including a slew of counters in every encounter, because the players have found a clever solution to most problems. It gets old, and smacks of arms-racism, and the DM utilizing meta game information to thwart the PCs (because he uses what he knows about the PCs and makes EVERY encounter somehow aware of the party's capabilities).

When the players come upon an ever-clever solution, the GM is going to have a "oh crap" moment. Because he just realized the PCs can use this trick over and over again, rather than it being situationally useful.


One poster's response was to completely remove the Fly spell. That strikes me as unrealistic, because if a wizard can create spells, he will create spells to solve problems, therefore eventually some wizard will create the Fly spell to solve the problem (even in real life, Man had spent millenia trying to fly).

Since Flight is so powerful, its certainly worth reviewing its function and level. As some folks have devised ways to limit it or make it cost more (or make the spell higher level/shorter duration).

I know one thing, as a GM, I would hate to have to constantly use the same nerf-trick for every encounter because the PCs have a new toy. But then, consider that as PCs level, we already counter their new BAB and HD, by using higher CR monsters.

I suspect the answer to Flight, as in many other "oh crap" features, is to make sure your sessions feature a variety of encounters. As noted, Flight is not as useful in indoor settings (at least not expansive ones). Therefore, some percentage of encounters should be indoors. Just as some % of structures should be stone, and not wood to prevent arson-solving. Just as some % of murder mysteries should have disguised the murderer such that Speak With Dead can't give the answer away.
 

In regards to flight as a unavoidable trope in a universe where there are dragons and almost anything can be done with magic, I would posit that flight is one example of something that can easily be determined as a concept that is just inherently against the "laws of nature" and therefore takes tremendous effort . Like gravity.

For example, in the Wheel of Time universe, mountains can be created, the world sundered by the One power, yet one cannot use the power to fly. Even lifting another person takes an exponential effort.

I think the way 4e has handled flight makes perfect sense to me (and the way they reined in wish and miracle as well). Flying is probably the greatest fantastical desire mankind has ever had (along with the 3 wishes trope) and it doesn't seem unreasonable to make such abilities the result of tremendous personal power (read Epic tier).

By all means, if you want a flight-based campaign, its easy enough give anyone and every one flight, and base all encounters on that. But as the default, give me the dream of flight over the reality.
 
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Hm, let's think about this.

- Peter Pan and Tinkerbell
- The protagonist of the Dragon and the George
- Several characters in the Xanth book have a form of flight as their spell
- The characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
- Perseus wears Hermes' winged sandals and a cap of invisibility, making him a classic munchkin
- Klone from the cartoon Blackstar, by growing wings
- Airbenders
- Dhoulmagus

My thinking is that it's actually pretty common whenever you have a setting with lots of magic. It's not as common in legendary England, Middle-Earth, or Conan's prehistorical Earth.


While your point is valid, I think far more people hew towards swords-n-sorcery than the fantasy sub-genres depicted in some of your examples. As for the one's I'm familiar with:

Peter Pan - Classic fly & hover. However, I have yet to participate in a game where the PCs wanted to emulate Peter Pan's style of fantasy.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - While many fans of this like to state that this how high-level D&D MUST be played, not everyone is a fan of wuxia.

Perseus - yeah, he's a munchkin. And despite the inspirational sources, he's a solo protagonist munchkin and a demigod.

Airbenders - The airbenders can't actually fly. They have to constantly work magical effects or rely on their staff to glide. If anything, it's an excellent example of how flight can be controlled to avoid the capes-n-tights cliches.
 
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One poster's response was to completely remove the Fly spell. That strikes me as unrealistic, because if a wizard can create spells, he will create spells to solve problems, therefore eventually some wizard will create the Fly spell to solve the problem (even in real life, Man had spent millenia trying to fly).

Sure, we spent millennia trying to fly. And it took us millennia to figure out how to do it! Just because something can be done doesn't mean it has been. For that matter, there's no guarantee that flight spells are even possible.
 

No. No capes.
edna_mode.jpg
 

As a GM, my biggest gripe with fly has nothing to do with flying creatures and everything to do with "Hey, I've got a Fly spell/item and now I can fly as well as Superman" (hovering, diving, etc.).

Things like Flying takes tremendous effort for races/species that don't fly naturally, Pathfinder's FLY skill, Avatar:TLA's airbender glider, etc. are all creative and viable ways of impacting another D&D prime offender element that pushes D&D away from swords-n-sorcery towards "Fantasy Superhero Action Hour".
 

I don't find flying to really be a problem, I just think flying can get to be pretty lame.

I'm a pretty low-key DM when it comes to magical abilities. Subtle things don't bother me, but flashy "far out" things make me cringe for some reason when it seems out of place. Flying is one of them.

The only reason is because it's a fairly low level spell that a PC can start using early on in his career. It's more of the visual effect that I imagine that bothers me more than the benefits it provides. It starts to feel too much like a comic book super hero scenario to me rather than a medieval fantasy scenario when a guy starts flying around so soon in his adventuring career. I'm not bothered by it at all at higher levels, because by then, the PCs are more super. But then, levitation doesn't bother me no matter how early on a PC does it...go figure :o

Plus, I cringe even more when the party wizard casts fly on everyone, then casts invisibility on everyone, and they hold hands like Peter Pan, Wendy, John, & Michael, and fly over danger. Not that I mind them avoiding the danger, but damn, if I saw anyone in Lord of the Rings do it like that, it would have ruined the coolness of the movie to me. I'm trying to run a macho gritty manly game, not a Disney cartoon :lol:
 

Flying is a game breaker. It however also can be controlled. Like many things where 3e removed a 'gotcha' limitation on spell powers, it resulted in unnecessary brokenness. I can't speak to 4e because I'm not familiar, but I would suggest the following.

1) Spells are one of the most common ways to gain flight. It should be explicit that if you are flying when the spell is dispelled, you are automatically falling. 3e removed this drawback, much to its loss in my opinion.
2) Flight, and in particular flight with 'Excellent' or better manueverability, is generally underpriced in my opinion. Either reduce the quality of magical flight from spells directly (or make the manuevarability scale with level of caster, with poor manueverability generally available early on), or else increase the level of the spells (or both).
3) Long duration always on items are generally underpriced in 3e. In particular, you are much more likely in my games to find an item that lets you cast a spell on yourself X times per day, than you are to find an item that grants you unlimited access to that spell. A 'ring of invisibility' that lets you be invisible all the time and has no drawbacks is IMO, something that shouldn't be showing up at all before very high level and should be priced under the item creation guidelines accordingly. In particular, the 3e item creation rules don't take into account balancing factors of the spell like the normal length that the spell lasts when determining what the spell should cost when made effectively 'permanent'. There is relatively greater advantage in making a spell that lasts rounds last 24 hours compared to making one that lasts hours last 24 hours. At lower levels, a 'ring of invisibility' or 'ring of flight' that let the wielder use a spell once or thrice per day is much less abusive and more likely to be balanced with the rest of the campaign.
4) Magical mounts are under the above obviously much stronger choices than they would be otherwise. Of course, magical mounts have obvious drawbacks that obviously under default 3e rules deprecate their usage relative to a 'ring of flying'. If you have a magical mount, you are vunerable to having your mount shot out from under you. You also have to pay the penalties to hit with ranged weapons for using winged flight, and you probably have insufficient manuerability to fly around in a typical dungeon. Still, if 'dispel magic' is reasonably common (and it should be) and 'always on' magic items relatively rare this might be worth it. At a metagame level I find this highly desirable, because wing mounts have alot of mythic resonance.
5) Both ranged weapons and spells have unrealistically large ranges that also have the undesirable effect of creating tactically simple situations. Since reducing ranges improves both my simulation and game, I've reduced both weapon and spell ranges to make melee a stronger option, which in turn reduces the number of monsters that simple go down hard at range flying or otherwise. As a nice side effect, spell ranges now tend to be inside weapon ranges, which makes spellcasters somewhat more vunerable.

Flying is not all great though. A flying creature cannot take cover. In balanced encounters involving ranged weapons, the ability to take appropriate cover is often the determining factor. Beyond 'having the high ground', a flying attacker is actually at a considerable disadvantage in a ranged weapon fight. One thing I find is that outside of an ambush, any encounter intended to challenge mid-high level PC's must have a ranged fallback option because really, flying is just a special case of the general 'maintain your distance and pummel option'. Giants need to throw rocks/spears. Humanoids need to have ranged weapons. Outsiders better have a ranged attack of some sort whether spells or missile weapons. If you build monsters like you would build a PC, with a primary attack/strategy (ranged or melee) and a fallback if the primary attack is unusable, it tends to go better. It also tends to go better if you mainly put monsters in terrain they are effective in. This is both gamist and simulationist as well, as a monster with reasonable intelligence is going to choose a place to lair which suits it, and a monster that can't stick to terrain that suits it probably will have died before the PCs came along.

However, I think that too much focus is being placed on how flying is a game breaker during combat. This is the least of its problems. Flying also does the following:

1) Gives you a +100 bonus to climb checks and grants you a natural climb speed.
2) Gives you a +100 bonus to balance checks and makes you trained in balance.
3) Gives you a +100 bonus on jump checks.
4) In the case of wingless flight, gives you a very large bonus on move silently checks.
5) Gives you the ability to avoid pressure plates and all traps based on gravity.
6) Allows you to move across difficult terrain without penalty.

The biggest problem with flight IMO is that it gives you the equivalent of epic level skill in several areas. The poor skill monkey or martial class working diligently on his athletics in order to do these awesome stunts, finds himself immediately outclassed to an incredible degree by a relatively lowly application of magic. His utility to the party which formerly had been quite high is suddenly reduced to a very low level. He isn't needed to climb the wall and throw the rope down anymore. He isn't need to find the pressure plate. He doesn't get to shine as the only one who can make it across the ice covered chain to pull the level. This is a problem skill monkey classes ('thief') have been having since 1e.
 
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