Why is it so important?

[pemerton]

Hey - I've been explicitly for the change in resource management because it will both allow primary spellcasters to cast spells in every round of combat, and require that primary martial characters have to ration their most powerful abilities.

Anyone want to claim that is not a good thing?

No.

I should add that I've agreed with most (maybe all?) of what you've said in your posts on this and a number of other 4e threads. Especially those which talk about the logic of adventure design, which I think have been spot on.

 

[3catcircus]

I've been quietly watching this thread, but no one really seems to be articulating two salient points, especially in light of Patryn's concern that the wizard should be able to cast an essentially infinite number of spells each day.

1. D&D, from its inception, was based upon military wargames. Just like in a real war, your PC goes into the fight not with the resources he wants, but with the resources he has. More importantly, wars are just as much about managing your logistics as it is about killing the enemy. Don't have any more Fireballs memorized? Use something else or get out of the way of the fighter. Don't have *any* spells memorized? *Stay* out of the way of the fighter. The fighter is down to 10 hp? Retreat. The fighter drops? Run!

2. Just because the fighter can attack every round or the rogue can attempt to hide in shadows every round doesn't mean that the wizard or cleric should be able to cast spells every round of every combat. What does the wizard do that no one else does? He handles all of those utility tasks *outside* of combat - identifying magic items and crafting new ones. The cleric? He can turn undead without casting a spell, and he can do it several times each day - if successful, it is more effective at quickly ending a combat than a fighter or wizard.

My point - you don't need to have the classes be equal to be effective.

 

[IanArgent]

I've been quietly watching this thread, but no one really seems to be articulating two salient points, especially in light of Patryn's concern that the wizard should be able to cast an essentially infinite number of spells each day.

1. D&D, from its inception, was based upon military wargames. Just like in a real war, your PC goes into the fight not with the resources he wants, but with the resources he has. More importantly, wars are just as much about managing your logistics as it is about killing the enemy. Don't have any more Fireballs memorized? Use something else or get out of the way of the fighter. Don't have *any* spells memorized? *Stay* out of the way of the fighter. The fighter is down to 10 hp? Retreat. The fighter drops? Run!

2. Just because the fighter can attack every round or the rogue can attempt to hide in shadows every round doesn't mean that the wizard or cleric should be able to cast spells every round of every combat. What does the wizard do that no one else does? He handles all of those utility tasks *outside* of combat - identifying magic items and crafting new ones. The cleric? He can turn undead without casting a spell, and he can do it several times each day - if successful, it is more effective at quickly ending a combat than a fighter or wizard.

My point - you don't need to have the classes be equal to be effective.

And this is a sacred cow I'll be very happy to grind into holy hamburger. It's a stupid concept anyway - we're not playing a military wargame (and the military wargames I have played do a much better job of separating logistics from organic capabilities anyway).

 

[3catcircus]

And this is a sacred cow I'll be very happy to grind into holy hamburger. It's a stupid concept anyway - we're not playing a military wargame (and the military wargames I have played do a much better job of separating logistics from organic capabilities anyway).

How is the fact that D&D was developed from concepts originally encountered in military wargames in *any way* a sacred cow? That is like saying that the sky is blue is a sacred cow...

As to logistics vs. organic capability modelling, that is simply a matter of granularity, especially since the rules of most military wargames are much smaller in volume.

 

[IanArgent]

The sacred cow of some "units" (characters) have different "logistics" (resource management) than others.

2. Just because the fighter can attack every round or the rogue can attempt to hide in shadows every round doesn't mean that the wizard or cleric should be able to cast spells every round of every combat. What does the wizard do that no one else does? He handles all of those utility tasks *outside* of combat - identifying magic items and crafting new ones. The cleric? He can turn undead without casting a spell, and he can do it several times each day - if successful, it is more effective at quickly ending a combat than a fighter or wizard.

Whoah. Item crafting is a 3.x innovation (effectively); and is by far a small part of the wizard's role. The wizard's role is (and always has been) artillery/offensive support. The cleric's role has been (and they want to change that) the hit Point battery. Turning undead is a stunt, and a terribly complicated one at that.

The 4ed mentaility is that a character should fulfill his role in every encounter, and every round within that encounter. That doesn't necessarily mean the wizard should have a fireball for every round, but that he should be able to do something that the fighter cannot do (the stereotypical example, shoot crossbow) with his action.

This is a major change from previous editions, and I for one welcome it.

Simple question - do you believe that a character should be able to do something appropriate to his class and role all the time, or not. And if so, why not?

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, is it fair to say that you posit that the 15 minute adventuring day problem happens because you use your best (wizardly) resources very quickly, and then need to rest to recover them, coupled with the perception that your remaining resources don't feel "wizardy" to you.

It is correct that I believe that this is a relatively good summation of one of the [primary] causes of the 15 minute adventuring day.

I would not go so far to say, however, that it is the only cause (as there are at least two others in my head).

But let's limit the discussion to this for awhile.

Obviously, if you have other theories, we'll have to look at them.

However, from what we have:

the 15 minute adventuring day problem happens because you use your best (wizardly) resources very quickly, and then need to rest to recover them​

Why do you use your best resources first? Presumably because you want to do something "wizardy" every round, and

your remaining resources don't feel "wizardy" to you.​

This seems, btw, and imho, to be the reasoning behind the changes suggested to relieve this problem in Wyatt's blog. It might be summed up,

If the wizard (or insert Class X) has enough wizardy things to do every round, he will not use up his best wizardy resources as quickly, and consequently will not cause the 15-minute adventuring day problem.​

Are we on the same page so far?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Item crafting is a 3.x innovation (effectively); and is by far a small part of the wizard's role.

Strange, as there are rules for item crafting in Expert D&D, 1st Edition AD&D, and 2nd Edition AD&D. The Wizard splatbook in 2nd Edition spends a fair amount of time on the topic, whereas Expert is almost like 3.X, excepting that you don't need a feat (you spend money + time).

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

So far you haven't responded.

"No means no."

 

[Raven Crowking]

Okay. For "ease of use" I put all posts together. I adjusted some numbers and added a few abilities to make it (seemingly at the first glance at least) consistent.

A couple of questions.

(1) Are we assuming that any per-encounter ability can be used with a minute reset, ala the SAGA system? For example, can I Arcane Mark a corridor while not in combat?

(2) Why did you include monsters in your set-up?

(3) Why did you not include some of the things that we know have been mentioned, such as the ability to attack and heal at the same time, or the idea that a wizard's per-day abilities comprise 20% of his resources and are the "big guns"?

When you answer these, I'll be ready to go on.

RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A couple of questions.

(1) Are we assuming that any per-encounter ability can be used with a minute reset, ala the SAGA system? For example, can I Arcane Mark a corridor while not in combat?

(2) Why did you include monsters in your set-up?

(3) Why did you not include some of the things that we know have been mentioned, such as the ability to attack and heal at the same time, or the idea that a wizard's per-day abilities comprise 20% of his resources and are the "big guns"?

When you answer these, I'll be ready to go on.

RC

(1) Yes. (Effectively, once per minute, if you like spamming around Arcane Marks )
(2) If I have to put in hit points of PCs, I should include monster details, too, otherwise the hit points are meaningless, too. If you're refering to the amount of monsters we might have in any given encounter: I use them to give a feeling for the total encounter setup and give ideas against what the resources are to be employed, given the details we were given about monster design and intented encounter design. But it's not like you _have_ to use the setup if you don't like it.

(3) Because I was more focussing on a Wizard. But the "Vampiric Touch"-like melee attack abilities should be simlar to that one. And I think the per/day resources pretty much fit a 20% model.

If you don't like these numbers, adjust the numbers (and explain why, preferrably )