Why is it so important?

[gizmo33]

I don't understand what this has to do with the rules. Unless I missed something it is up the DM and players how much interaction that is necessary with game world elements.

The rules determine what it is that you need to do to be successful. In most people's campaigns I don't have to worry about starving because no one really keeps track of food. This means I don't really have to worry about supplies and supply lines and such. IRL if I were going to march around in the jungle for a month I'd have to have all kinds of supplies, which means people to carry them and the appropriate social network needed to hire them, etc. In a typical DnD game, me and my three friends can just head out into the woods and dispense with dealing with NPCs. The realistic circumstances of the real world keep me immersed in it and forces me to figure out my environment (the "NPCs" and places so to speak).

Then again I'm not saying necessarily that bartering with merchants in order to buy talcum powder because your DM has some sort of weird "jungle rash" rules is all that heroic or interesting when it comes to gaming. There's a sweet spot though, and the more of these versimilitude things you dispense with, the less real game reason that the PCs have to interact with the world, short of just killing things and taking their stuff. Roleplayers will interact with NPCs as a hobby, and DMs may impose some interactions by fiat, but the game framework justification for doing this won't be there.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I suddenly wonder what sort of material component rules will be in place for 4e. If they stick with the 3.x material component pouch version, then with the exception of spells that require rare components, there will be no real depletion of magical resources, so long as the party has a minute to rest.

If, on the other hand, a spells components are tracked like ammo, then there will be at least some form of resource depletion (for at least some spells). This would remove some of the sting, in my opinion, while still giving a per encounter model (which, I like more than dislike).

 

[Imaro]

I think that serves to underline that each fight should be interesting in its own right, rather than just being "mook" or "BBEG". Maybe the mooks have something the PCs need; maybe they're guarding a chokepoint that has to be crossed; maybe they're sniping at the PCs from across a ravine, so the PCs can't just charge them; etc. Basically, each fight should have its own purpose for being; it should never be just to deplete resources.

How does that in any way make the fight more interesting. If I know I can use Force Push 2x in the encounter and I have three other jedi who can do it 2x as well...we Force push all of them over and over again until they're unconscious. Again it becomes a simple question of overwhelming them quickly. Force Slam affects up numerous targets.

Guarding a choke point....Force slam em and soldier picks off the rest.
sniping from across a ravine....Force slam(with Distant power technique) em and soldier snipes back.
They have something we need...Force slam and pick off the rest, then take it.

I'm missing your point. The problem is that you're going to find a per-encounter ability that works, and the fact that it can be replenished without thought, makes most encounters a given with very little thought to strategy or tactics. This is boring.

 

[hong]

Then again I'm not saying necessarily that bartering with merchants in order to buy talcum powder because your DM has some sort of weird "jungle rash" rules is all that heroic or interesting when it comes to gaming. There's a sweet spot though, and the more of these versimilitude things you dispense with, the less real game reason that the PCs have to interact with the world, short of just killing things and taking their stuff. Roleplayers will interact with NPCs as a hobby, and DMs may impose some interactions by fiat, but the game framework justification for doing this won't be there.

Good! The less of the s*mul*tionist baggage from 3E remains, the better.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I think that serves to underline that each fight should be interesting in its own right, rather than just being "mook" or "BBEG". Maybe the mooks have something the PCs need; maybe they're guarding a chokepoint that has to be crossed; maybe they're sniping at the PCs from across a ravine, so the PCs can't just charge them; etc. Basically, each fight should have its own purpose for being; it should never be just to deplete resources.

Heh, I agree. You can also extend this to characters and say "each character's actions should have its own motivation, and not just be a matter of resources and strategy". Which would, incidentally, pretty much eliminate this weird "Start at 9, encounter at 9:15, rest at 9:30" problem that is assigned to 3.X and that has never cropped up in any of my 3.X games, which is why it has me scratching my head where the heck that came from in the first place.

 

[hong]

How does that in any way make the fight more interesting. If I know I can use Force Push 2x in the encounter and I have three other jedi who can do it 2x as well...we Force push all of them over and over again until they're unconscious. Again it becomes a simple question of overwhelming them quickly. Force Slam affects up numerous targets.

Guarding a choke point....Force slam em and soldier picks off the rest.
sniping from across a ravine....Force slam(with Distant power technique) em and soldier snipes back.
They have something we need...Force slam and pick off the rest, then take it.

I'm missing your point. The problem is that you're going to find a per-encounter ability that works, and the fact that it can be replenished without thought, makes most encounters a given with very little thought to strategy or tactics. This is boring.

The point is, you are doing the fight _for a reason_, so it's not just a meaningless encounter. If you can get it over and done with quickly, then great. More power to you for your tactical nous. Besides:

- Your examples just might point to force push being the problem, not the mooks as such.

- Maybe your GM needs to use tougher mooks.

 

[Imaro]

The point is, you are doing the fight _for a reason_, so it's not just a meaningless encounter. If you can get it over and done with quickly, then great. More power to you for your tactical nous. Besides:

- Your examples just might point to force push being the problem, not the mooks as such.

- Maybe your GM needs to use tougher mooks.

I'm talking about the fight itself being interesting from both a player and GM perspective, you know requiring thought and planning. No the power isn't the problem, because force lightning can be used the same way, as well as a few others(I only used it as an example because it came to mind first.)

I was the GM, and I followed the encounter guidelines and used the pre-made NPC stormtroopers in the book...so maybe this type of system has some quirks that the designers should be aware of and think about for 4e.

 

[hong]

To give a bit more background, the last campaign I ran was for a Bo9S-heavy group. 1 warblade, 1 swordsage, 1 crusader, 1 homebrew archer, 1 "geomantic channeler" (tweaked dragon shaman). All 10th level.

No spellcasting, almost no per-day abilities. I certainly never ran into the problem of supposedly-boring fights because abilities refreshed easily. That's because each fight had stakes that were significant, or took place in a new and interesting location, or there was a significant risk of people being killed if they got overconfident (it's quite possible for a bunch of CR 8 monsters to take down even a 10th level warblade, if he gets isolated). It's not that hard.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

To give a bit more background, the last campaign I ran was for a Bo9S-heavy group. 1 warblade, 1 swordsage, 1 crusader, 1 homebrew archer, 1 "geomantic channeler" (tweaked dragon shaman). All 10th level.

No spellcasting, almost no per-day abilities. I certainly never ran into the problem of supposedly-boring fights because abilities refreshed easily. That's because each fight had stakes that were significant, or took place in a new and interesting location, or there was a significant risk of people being killed if they got overconfident (it's quite possible for a bunch of CR 8 monsters to take down even a 10th level warblade, if he gets isolated). It's not that hard.

And the lesson here, folks...a good DM can make an exciting game no matter what system is used, a bad DM while screw up any system he gets his hands on.

 

[gizmo33]

I think that serves to underline that each fight should be interesting in its own right, rather than just being "mook" or "BBEG". Maybe the mooks have something the PCs need; maybe they're guarding a chokepoint that has to be crossed; maybe they're sniping at the PCs from across a ravine, so the PCs can't just charge them; etc. Basically, each fight should have its own purpose for being; it should never be just to deplete resources.

But who cares if you're being sniped at across a ravine? I guess that means you've just made the mook encounter harder. Not being able to charge? Makes the mook encounter harder I guess. I think it's notable that you're suggestions here involve increasing the difficulty of encounters. This, IMO is one of the obvious results of the "per-encounter" resource design.