Why is Str used for melee attack rolls instead of Dex?

[Piratecat]

Discussing peoples' ideas is fine. Attacking their character is not. But everyone knows that.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Azlan; still, it's worth mentioning that I have no interest in maintaining alternate ids - and certainly not so that I avoid expressing my opinion on design issues. We're not debating world peace here, we're bashing rules design on a fun game. Nowhere near the same level of seriousness is required. If you want to talk more about the Meta stuff, Azlan, feel free to drop me an email, but I'd rather not inadvertently drag your thread off-topic.

So, back to the topic! Question: are you working under the assumption that all sacred cows are bad? I am not; in many cases they define what makes D&D the game that it is.

Darklone, if armor penalties applied to things like reflex saves, I'd be incredibly surprised if most PCs wore heavy armor. It seems like built-in operant conditioning that "wear armor, never dodge lightning bolts" would result in less tanks. Thoughts?

 

[Azlan]

Question: are you working under the assumption that all sacred cows are bad? I am not; in many cases they define what makes D&D the game that it is.

A "sacred cow" is considered to be something -- usually, a belief -- that people are zealous against sacrificing, even though something better is being presented to them. My dictionary defines a sacred cow as "any individual, organization, or belief considered to be excempt from criticism."

So, yes, I consider all sacred cows to be inherently a bad thing. *Nothing* should be *excempt* from criticism. (For example, right now there are a lot of things going on in the top levels our nation that are fast becoming a "sacred cow", which goes against the freedom of speech that this nation was founded upon. But that is a different debate altogether, and an off-topic one at that.)

 

[Piratecat]

Don't even remotely approach politics, please.

For the use of gaming, let's bend away from the dictionary and define sacred cow as "something inherent to D&D that has become an intrinsic part of its system." Criticism doesn't enter into this definition, because criticism is irrelevant; how the game is played is what really matters. So, given that, are you interested in challenging the fundamental linchpins of D&D - design decisions which are not necessarily the "best," but which are considered such a part of D&D that removing them turns the game into something else?

Examples of these include fireball at 3rd level, for instance.

Thanks!

 

[Azlan]

Criticism doesn't enter into this definition, because criticism is irrelevant; how the game is played is what really matters. So, given that, are you interested in challenging the fundamental linchpins of D&D - design decisions which are not necessarily the "best," but which are considered such a part of D&D that removing them turns the game into something else?

So, then, the linchpins of D&D are not *exempt* from criticism -- they're *beyond* or *above* criticism? Well, then, I guess that makes D&D the "nerdvana" of RPGs.

Examples of these include fireball at 3rd level, for instance.

Are you saying "fireballs at 3rd level" is one of these linchpins that you are a proponent of? Or is it acceptable here for me to criticize the overindulgence among players of a ubiquitous spell which, IMHO, is too powerful for its level?

 

[Darklone]

Darklone, if armor penalties applied to things like reflex saves, I'd be incredibly surprised if most PCs wore heavy armor. It seems like built-in operant conditioning that "wear armor, never dodge lightning bolts" would result in less tanks. Thoughts?

For now, the playertanks simply got happy with a Dex of 12 or 10 and were happy to use the few higher rolls for different attributes

And this puny DM here is happy to throw some fireballs (3rd level, sacred cow pun intended!) at them now and then. That doesn't really kill them (since most of them make up for bad luck when rolling hitpoints... fighter lvl4 with 57 hitpoints anyone?) and keeps me happy!

Till now, my players still suffer from bad saves, will saves or reflex saves... it's a big group (9 gals and guys) with four or five tanks, so the artillery in the second row doesn't get beaten too much yet. And these are the guys with high Refl saves and no armour.

Looking forward to catching their tanks (clerics, barbarians, dwarven fighters) next session with a few well placed webs But they are used to lose some tanks fast to one or two spells and the others make up for it (one paladin with a Kalamar feat usually makes all saves... all three saves above +10 now).

The only tank who stands a real chance to hop from two webs would prolly be the dwarven fighter1/rogue3 (hitpoints 45...)

Now back to the old thread after Uncle Darklones childrens hour how to scare newbies with D&D.

 

[Azlan]

Don't even remotely approach politics, please.

Sorry. Discussing politics is certainly not on my agenda. I gave that example merely to point out how sacred cows can be a really bad thing. But I guess I should've thought of a different example.

When the word "sacred cow" is used, it's almost always in reference to a political or religious belief. So, an example that did not involve politics or (egads!) religion, and one that we could all readily understand and relate to, did not occur to me.

 

[hong]

So, then, the linchpins of D&D are not *exempt* from criticism -- they're *beyond* or *above* criticism? Well, then, I guess that makes D&D the "nerdvana" of RPGs.

Ah, we have a *refugee* from the *alignment* wars. You should *know* that MSB does this *much* better than *you*.


Hong "bah, feh, and falllacial" Ooi

 

[Azlan]

Ah, we have a *refugee* from the *alignment* wars. You should *know* that MSB does this *much* better than *you*.

"Alignment wars"? "MSB"? Forgive me, but I don't know what you're talking about, as your lingo is unkown to me. Unlike most of you veterans, here, my number of posts is still well under 1,000.

 

[drnuncheon]

I'm smiling at your assertions that Dex wouldn't be an uber-stat if armor dex penalties applied to more character mechanics. That's incorrect; the effect of such a rule would be that no one would wear any armor. Most fighters would be like the classic swashbucklers, high dex and light armor. After all, game behavior models itself after the paradigm created by the rules.

Anecdotal evidence - that is exactly what happened whenever we played GURPS (where dex influences your chance to hit and to not be hit, and strength only affects damage, and armor absorbs damage more than deflecting it).

It happens less in HERO, but then again HERO has a point buy system where 1 point of dex costs 3 times as much as 1 point of strength.

J

 

[Azlan]

Anecdotal evidence - that is exactly what happened whenever we played GURPS (where dex influences your chance to hit and to not be hit, and strength only affects damage, and armor absorbs damage more than deflecting it).

Against opponents in heavy armor, how were these highly dextrous characters -- who surely were hitting their targets most of the time -- getting much if any damage through?

Anyway, as I've already said, if "Max Dex Bonus" is applied to attack rolls with missiles, to Reflex saves, and so on, as well as to AC bonus, then Dex would not be the uber-stat. (I don't think GURPS or Hero penalizes you enough in this regard for wearing heavy armor.)

But that's provided that the game's unbalanced (nevermind unrealistic) benefits for armor is likewise addressed and rectified. Otherwise, everyone and his brother is going to have a high Dex and wearing one of those ubiquitous (and highly unbalanced, IMHO) chain shirts.

Really, the difference in protection from a chain shirt and a full suit of plate armor should be much more than a mere +4 AC, which in 3E D&D is applied equally against an attack no matter what the attacking weapon, whether it's a dagger or a greataxe, a quarterstaff or a morningstar.