D&D 5E Why is the Sorceror so limited in spell knowledge?

[Dausuul]

Where does it say that? Page 164 says you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class using only your levels in that class.

Page 114 says you can copy a spell into your spellbound as long as you have a spell slot of the right level.

So you can copy the spell into your spellbook, but you can't prepare it. I guess it's handy if you plan on putting more levels into wizard later.

 

[Li Shenron]

In case nobody mentioned it, but personally a detail that I dislike is that after level 17th the Sorcerer will learn NO more spells.

This happens of course to other classes, but when it happens to someone like the Clerics who anyway automatically learn all their possible spells, then it becomes moot... they don't learn more in the last 3 levels because they already did.

But for Sorcerers and Bards it just doesn't feel right...

 

[Minigiant]

One thing that is really overlooked is how 5e balanced magic.

5e balanced magic by saying "only your highest level spells matter". The strength of your lower level spell slots diminish as you level as their damage, areas, and effects do not automatically scale. So theses slot get filled with minor buff and situational damage.



So many of the wizards prepare spells NEVER get casted. So the wizard has more spells prepared but it is junk like burning hands, magic missile, and comprehend languages. Useful at level 3 but not game changers at level 13.

The sorcerer is the only cast who can make use of low level spells slots with metamagic or can cannibalize the slots to boost their good spells.

 

[Juriel]

The sorcerer is the only cast who can make use of low level spells slots with metamagic or can cannibalize the slots to boost their good spells.

This... may be a very good point. Hmm. Had not considered the high-level impact.

Beyond Wizard being able to freely use the lower slots for out-of-combat utility.

 

[tomBitonti]

Hmm,

Couldn't the same innate ability drive a sorcerer's rituals the same as their spells?

If ritual magic is an innate part of magic, then it would seem that all casters could tap into it, not just a few. A wizard would follow a detailed set of instructions, while a sorcerer would go with their feel for the magic.

Although, this is a problem:

a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.

So sorcerer's should not have rituals. Is there any spell vehicle, similar to a ritual as a kind of extended spell casting, that would fit the more spontaneous nature of the sorcerer.

Thx!

TomB

 

[fireinthedust]

[MENTION=23464]ranger[/MENTION]Wicket: I think this is a misinterpretation of what the rules say. I'm looking over p163, and while you could use a higher level slot to nuke someone with a lower level spell, you can't "learn" high level spells from classes beyond what you know through whatever class level you are in that class alone.

That said, spell slots seem to be treated as being *very* different from spells known or prepared, or scribed. Every class I'm seeing has them in a separate category, and the multi-classing on p163 makes it clear that you're to keep both classes separate in terms of knowledge, vs sharing fuel/battery power distribution between the two functions.

So... you can plug your iphone into your car to listen to music, but it doesn't, um, give you more bandwidth just because you've got a v6 engine... (not my best work here, but I'm trying)

 

[TwoSix]

Hmm. While the pg163 rules make it pretty clear that you can't know or prepare higher level spells when you multiclass, I don't see any text about simply scribing them in your spellbook. Which means you could scribe higher level spells into your spellbook to use as rituals.

Since that pretty much mimics the ritual caster feat, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Where does it say that? Page 164 says you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class using only your levels in that class.

Page 114 says you can copy a spell into your spellbound as long as you have a spell slot of the right level.

I don't even think it's overpowered. A cleric 4 wizard 1 misses out on improving his turn undead in exchange for slightly more spell options. That works for me.

As others have noted, while the Spellbook sidebar doesn't restrict a multiclass character from scribing spells of higher level than he could prepare and cast...he still can't prepare and cast them. They are added to his wizard spell list, and he isn't able to cast wizard spells above level 1.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that the ability to do that is intended by the designers. I'm almost positive, based on general game design and how they have ruled things, that it was simply a phrasing oversight in the Spellbook sidebar. Change the part about having spell slots for that level to say something like, "and you are capable of preparing wizard spells of that level," and that's what it should say.

While this thread started out with a specific question, it seems to have broadened out to a general "sorcs are useless WHY" thread.

To which I say: please master the class before crying out how weak it is.

The preceding comment is fairly telling: if a sorcerer is roughly equal to an Evoker, then it clearly can't be all that weak...

Regarding Wild Magic:

A Wild Mage Sorcerer has the potential to gain advantage N+1 times each day, where N is the total number of non-cantrip spell castings/slots allowed to the class. Including slots from Sorc points.

Which is huge, given that you decide freely when to use it.

• A feeble pit trap opens up beneath your feet. Ok, I'll save my Advantage - I think my high level Sorc can survive a few dice of damage.
• An invisible Liche casts a major save-or-die spell on you. I believe I'll have my advantage on this save right now, thank you very much.

And then you cast any spell back at the lich, and automatically gain back your advantage...

Pretty heady stuff if you allow me. And I say that despite polymorphing myself into a Sheep just last night...


/Zapp

I think advantage is pretty nice (so I agree with you on the potential power) but it is highly dependent on whether the DM always calls for a wild surge when the rules say he "can." He might call for a roll or surge always, sometimes, or never. Personally, what I'm doing with my wild mage players is asking them to choose a percentage between 0% and 100% at character creation. Whenever it says the "DM can" have them roll, percentile dice determine whether or not I do. (I'm ruling it that if they don't get a surge on their first spell after gaining advantage, they keep rolling the percentage each time until they get it). 50% will be my default. Starting up a new campaign that includes a wild mage on Friday, so we'll see how it works in practice.

One thing that is really overlooked is how 5e balanced magic.

5e balanced magic by saying "only your highest level spells matter". The strength of your lower level spell slots diminish as you level as their damage, areas, and effects do not automatically scale. So theses slot get filled with minor buff and situational damage.



So many of the wizards prepare spells NEVER get casted. So the wizard has more spells prepared but it is junk like burning hands, magic missile, and comprehend languages. Useful at level 3 but not game changers at level 13.

The sorcerer is the only cast who can make use of low level spells slots with metamagic or can cannibalize the slots to boost their good spells.

While I disagree that lower level spells don't matter, I think I'm in agreement with the general insight you're bringing about the way the sorcerer can shine using such a technique.

Hmm. While the pg163 rules make it pretty clear that you can't know or prepare higher level spells when you multiclass, I don't see any text about simply scribing them in your spellbook. Which means you could scribe higher level spells into your spellbook to use as rituals.

Since that pretty much mimics the ritual caster feat, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Gaining Ritual Caster for free with a single level of wizard is a bit much in my estimation, and I'm pretty sure it isn't intended to work that way. If I were playing a sorcerer or bard and my DM interpreted it like that I'd be highly likely to make use of it. Giving up one level in my primary class in order to pick up 3 cantrips and the Ritual Caster feat for the wizard class sounds pretty nice to me.

Overall I'm glad people are pointing out some of the little details that improve sorcerers beyond how they look at first glance.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Honestly I hate what they've done with sorcerers. Spell slots are annoying because they're nine different kinds of resource you have to track, so the sorcerer adds a tenth? Which can be transferred back into slots and vice versa, but at a crappy exchange rate. So if you want to be an effective sorcerer, you get to play Magical Accountant, figuring out where to use your various metamagic powers and sorcery points to squeeze optimal efficiency out of your resources.

Ugh. Give me the playtest sorcerer any day (the Gish with spell points).

 

[Minigiant]

Honestly I hate what they've done with sorcerers. Spell slots are annoying because they're nine different kinds of resource you have to track, so the sorcerer adds a tenth? Which can be transferred back into slots and vice versa, but at a crappy exchange rate. So if you want to be an effective sorcerer, you get to play Magical Accountant, figuring out where to use your various metamagic powers and sorcery points to squeeze optimal efficiency out of your resources.

Ugh. Give me the playtest sorcerer any day (the Gish with spell points).

It's not that bad.
A sorcerer player could easily just use sorcery points to Empower damage spells and casting utility spells be very effective. It's not so complex unless you want to squeeze out every instance of efficiency.