Why is the WoW influence a bad thing?

[WhatGravitas]

If it's a system that makes it so monsters -can- attack the casters and such but it's penalized enough that it's not a particularly viable option, that's even better.

The crusader from Bo9S is a good example for that: On mid-levels, he's able to make AoO if an enemy moves, can use abilities to give penalties on attacks, except those directed against himself and get more powerful after taking damage, thus creating a lose-lose situation for the enemy: Either you supercharge the crusader or begin to suffer penalties.

One of the best tank solutions for D&D so far, of course IMHO.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Zurai]

So in all things released about 4e, what about it are people excited about that you can't find in a good MMO like WoW?

In all things about WoW, what do people like that you can't find in a good PnP RPG like D&D?

 

[Rakin]

I used to play wow, a lot of wow, too much wow, and although I didn't really follow the crowd on the "I have to be the best, and have all the elite gear" I got bored and tired of it. Other than mechanics wow has nothing to offer, and once those are all figured out there's nothing left.

Anyway, to answer your question, if only mechanics and the loot grind is fun/important to you, I have a previous post that answers your question:

In all seriousness. If the system is going to be wow on paper, why not just go play wow. There's no way that (the way wotc offers it up anyway) tabletoping is any cheaper than 15 bucks a month now, anyway. Also with wow you get a computer to run your game for you, as well as professionals pumping out the material. On top of all of that, there's millions of people on wow at the sime time, day or night, so looking for a group to game with involves almost nothing versus trying and finding a group to meet up in real life every week.

Also there's no preperation in wow as well as no dealing with paper, pencils, or keeping track of your own character.

The only thing left tabletop can offer you that wow can not is Roleplaying as well as offering up creative ways to handle encounters and an ever changing world.

But I don't see anyone here or anywhere arguing over how those 3 things will be effected by 4E, just game mechanics.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Why have a mechanic for this? The fighter can simply yell out his challenge. If the orc chieftain is a coward at heart, he can refuse and order his troops forward. This may cause him to lose face, however, and could cause far reaching campaign effects as his troops will respect him less, and may revolt at some point. A brave chieftain or a smart one who knows he can't afford to lessen himself in the eyes of his subordinates might accept the challenge. There's no need for a feat or a rule to govern this.

In general I think the "Calling out" challenge by the knight makes sense. It seems a lot like the big guy in the battle pointing at the enemy's leader and essentially going "You and me, let's duke it out, mono-e-mono".

That really works against primitive creatures where the Chief is the baddest mofo around and he must prove his dominance against the enemy's leader. It makes less sense for tactical, militant groups ("Why would I fight you when I have all these guys to back me up?").

But it is very cinematic and a classic fantasy trope.

 

[GSHamster]

So in all things released about 4e, what about it are people excited about that you can't find in a good MMO like WoW?

- Infinite content
- Extremely varied content (every Onyxia fight is the same, every D&D dragon fight is a whole new ballgame)
- Better flexibility/handling on non-combat encounters
- Opportunity to actually change the world, to have actions make a noticeable difference in future (non-combat) gameplay.
- Positional combat (most MMOs shy away from collision dection because of the computational difficulty and lag).
- Imagination based

In all things about WoW, what do people like that you can't find in a good PnP RPG like D&D?

- More complex combat
- Lack of prep work
- Available 24/7
- Solo content
- More "intricate" combat encounters (most D&D encounters are relatively simple, compared to the technical nature of a fight like Vaelastraz the Corrupt)
- Faster Pace
- Ability to play with many different people OR play with the same people
- Ability to play against computer mobs OR against fellow players
- Visually based

 

[ruleslawyer]

Why have a mechanic for this? The fighter can simply yell out his challenge. If the orc chieftain is a coward at heart, he can refuse and order his troops forward. This may cause him to lose face, however, and could cause far reaching campaign effects as his troops will respect him less, and may revolt at some point. A brave chieftain or a smart one who knows he can't afford to lessen himself in the eyes of his subordinates might accept the challenge. There's no need for a feat or a rule to govern this.

Unless you want to boil all of those psychological considerations down to DM fiat, yes there is. If I have a special ability to command battlefield attention and respect by my presence, I should get to *use* that ability with some reasonably predictable understanding of outcome.

 

[GSHamster]

Why have a mechanic for this? The fighter can simply yell out his challenge. If the orc chieftain is a coward at heart, he can refuse and order his troops forward. This may cause him to lose face, however, and could cause far reaching campaign effects as his troops will respect him less, and may revolt at some point. A brave chieftain or a smart one who knows he can't afford to lessen himself in the eyes of his subordinates might accept the challenge. There's no need for a feat or a rule to govern this.

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is that the DM is deliberately playing sub-optimally and is using "role-playing" to justify it.

 

[Zurai]

- More complex combat
- Lack of prep work
- Available 24/7
- Solo content
- More "intricate" combat encounters (most D&D encounters are relatively simple, compared to the technical nature of a fight like Vaelastraz the Corrupt)
- Faster Pace
- Ability to play with many different people OR play with the same people
- Ability to play against computer mobs OR against fellow players
- Visually based

Lack of prep work? That's exactly one of the things 4E is trying to solve. Not to mention that there's a lot of prep work in WoW unless you're doing exclusively easy solo content. Even finding a group for an instance can take hours; preparing for a raid takes hours every day.

Solo content? There's a rule in every single PnP RPG that you cannot have a 1 person adventure? That's new by me.

More complex combat? More intricate encounters? That doesn't gibe well with your "Infinite content/Imagination-based" statement. Either PnP is more open-ended or it can't be as intricate or complex; you can't have both. Personally I'm going with PnP is more open-ended

Available 24/7? Depends on what aspect of the game you're looking at. You can't raid just any time you want to, for example.

Faster pace? Again, a boss fight in WoW can take 10+ minutes. A boss fight in D&D generally takes 1 minute or less (of "game time" at least). Seems to me that D&D is much faster paced.

Ability to play with people you want to play with? I guess that depends on where you live. In my area, you can get pretty much any kind of RPG/party you want, any day of the week. I know people who literally have a different game every day of the week.

Yeah, you can't play against computer-controlled opponents in PnP. I'll give that one to you free and clear. You can certainly fight other player-controlled characters, though.

Visually based? Isn't one of the constant complaints about 3rd and 4th edition being that they're too integrated with miniatures?


In short, the only valid item IMO is "You can play against computer-controlled opponents", which seems, well, obvious and pretty much irrelevant to the discussion of what mechanics are badwrongfun about WoW.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Unless you want to boil all of those psychological considerations down to DM fiat, yes there is. If I have a special ability to command battlefield attention and respect by my presence, I should get to *use* that ability with some reasonably predictable understanding of outcome.

Fine, and I should be able to ignore it. If the big bad playground bully challenges me, and I know I'll get my ass kicked, there should be no reason I can't decline his challenge - And then hit him in the back of the head with a Robert Jordon novel.

 

[Gundark]

My fear is that they take elements of factions or reputation and enter it into D&D. It would be easy as basically it's already built on levels and quests. To enter a PrC you have to have a certain reputation to a faction, which is done by doing quests for the faction, which in return return faction XP points the DM awards you. Only then can you enter the PrC. No more requirements of +5 BAB, or Saves, etc. But rather Faction, this would truely make it the PrC class that they wanted them to be in the first place.

This concern doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It would be BAD to have reputation requirements for Prc? It would make sense to me that you shouldn't be able to take the "King's Guard" Prc until you had proven yourself to the Crown. You would prove yourself by defeating the thieves guild, uncovering a plot to kill the king, doing quests for the king, etc. How is something like this a WoW thing? Someone taking a Prc just cause the meet the requirements is lame IMHO.

Why would it be bad that once you had this reputation they rewarded the characters with gear. "We bestow upon you the sword Flamespitter as a symbol of your membership with the King's guard".

I play WoW so I know what your talking about. However I think it's a case of WoW copying D&D in a way that makes sense in a MMORG, rather than the opposite.