Why is the WoW influence a bad thing?

[Aldarc]

I've yet to hear of a PnP encounter that involves the coordination needed for Vael, C'Thun, Four Horseman, etc.

Dear gods, I hope not. This is one thing I can live without. D&D does not need formulaic strategies which pigeonhold players into such things. And the reason why those coordinated strategies develop is because of their repetition and other players reading the strategies to ensure that they survive. This is metagaming strategies, which do not really involve developing strategies on the fly for first time encounters.

 

[Zurai]

The prep work in playing WoW involves turning on your computer and logging in. The fact that you may have to "prep" (by farming consumables, getting enchants, etc.) doesn't preclude the fact that you're still PLAYING.

I don't know many people at all that would consider farming to be playing the game. Most people equate it to work, not gaming.

So you're playing a PnP RPG all by yourself, no DM? Interesting....

There are PnP games where that's viable, but I'll admit I wasn't counting the DM. Fair point.

Infinite content is more of a story thing. I've yet to hear of a PnP encounter that involves the coordination needed for Vael, C'Thun, Four Horseman, etc.

Again, you can't have it both ways. There's absolutely nothing mechanically preventing someone from making an encounter as complex as Wow raid bosses in D&D or any other PnP game. Just because you've not heard of one doesn't mean it's imposible, and my question was what WoW mechanics cannot be found in PnP games.

Well, it is unaccessible for a few hours on Tuesday. But besides that, you can play whenever you want.

Again, depends on what you do when you play. Raids generally only happen in the evening after work during the week. Solo content is all the time, of course.

You either live in a college town or an extreme statistical outlier. I know many people who spend months looking for a gaming group.

Again, my original question was what is in WoW that you cannot find in PnP, not what can be difficult to find depending on where you live.

You're not seriously comparing 3D animated characters and backgrounds to an unmoving mini, are you? The ability to physically see what your character is doing is a big draw for computer RPGs over PnP.

I dunno about that; there were tons of complaints when WoW originally released about how cruddy the graphics were, and yet it's the most popular computer game to ever exist on the planet. If we were talking about FPS games then yeah, I'd agree with you - but I'm relatively certain that graphics are a secondary concern over gameplay even with MMOs.

Sorry, but all of his items are valid points. Stating that both WoW and PnP games have various strengths is hardly an attack on PnP, and I see no reason why the thoughtful post by GSHamster was treated as such.

My point was that there is absolutely nothing in WoW that was not already taken (directly or from another game that stole the concept) from PnP RPGs. I thought that was pretty clear. I don't have any clue why you think I thought it was an attack on PnP games.

 

[GSHamster]

Dear gods, I hope not. This is one thing I can live without. D&D does not need formulaic strategies which pigeonhold players into such things. And the reason why those coordinated strategies develop is because of their repetition and other players reading the strategies to ensure that they survive. This is metagaming strategies, which do not really involve developing strategies on the fly for first time encounters.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from executing such an intricate strategy successfully. It's one of the hardest things to convey to non-raiders, but to me, it's the real reason I raid.

It's kind of like being part of an orchestra playing a difficult piece of music, or individual dancers performing a complex choreographed dance.

When your raid successfully does a hard fight, each individual player playing her role properly yet working together as a unit, transitioning from stage to stage effectively, resulting in boss kill, well, it's a thrill.

 

[GSHamster]

I dunno about that; there were tons of complaints when WoW originally released about how cruddy the graphics were, and yet it's the most popular computer game to ever exist on the planet. If we were talking about FPS games then yeah, I'd agree with you - but I'm relatively certain that graphics are a secondary concern over gameplay even with MMOs.

You misunderstand my point. In D&D, my character exists in my imagination. I might have a mini to represent her, but the mini is not exact. The mini could have blond hair, where my char has black hair, or be using a greatword, when my char is sword-n-board.

In WoW, my character exists on the screen. When I switch weapons, the character switches weapons. When I get a new piece of armor, the character on my screen actually changes to reflect that.

That's what I mean by imagination-based vs visually-based. It has nothing to do with the quality of graphics.

 

[Aldarc]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from executing such an intricate strategy successfully. It's one of the hardest things to convey to non-raiders, but to me, it's the real reason I raid.

It's kind of like being part of an orchestra playing a difficult piece of music, or individual dancers performing a complex choreographed dance.

When your raid successfully does a hard fight, each individual player playing her role properly yet working together as a unit, transitioning from stage to stage effectively, resulting in boss kill, well, it's a thrill.

Yes, but the point is that these raiding strategies are formulated primarily from repetition or raiding with people who have performed the raid before. Players already know what Onyxia is going to do once her health drops to a certain level, so they have already planned for it. D&D does not operate on these principles as the encounters are generally more open-ended.

"STFU and heal!"

 

[avin]

Warrior lv 70, ROgue lv 66 = me. I just don't like D&D be like Wow in the aspect of story. Wow's story is dumb.

 

[GSHamster]

Yes, but the point is that these raiding strategies are formulated primarily from repetition or raiding with people who have performed the raid before. Players already know what Onyxia is going to do once her health drops to a certain level, so they have already planned for it. D&D does not operate on these principles as the encounters are generally more open-ended.

So? That's like complaining that the piece of music was composed by someone earlier. The point is in the execution. Knowing what's to come doesn't guarantee that you'll be ready for it.

I did list your position as a strength of D&D as well. Every D&D fight is a new ballgame. But to balance that, you can't have as intricate a fight as a repeatable fight will be.

They're both fun. Just one is a strength of D&D and one is a strength of MMOs.

 

[EATherrian]

Whyfor you continue to parrot this line, Henry?

Time-sensitive adventures become EASIER to pull off with per-encounter balancing, because the designer/DM no longer needs to worry about the party running out of steam prematurely. They can just insert encounters as deemed suitable for the timetable or setting, without having to deal with artificial game-design issues like not overwhelming the group too early. Evidence: every FPS with a map that has a counter ticking. The concept of a "per day resource" is completely alien to FPSes, but that doesn't stop people making maps with timers.

Isn't the party running out of steam part of the challenge of these types of adventures. I think what the previous poster is saying is that per-encounter means that there is now no need to stop at all, no need to camp, no need to catch your breath. I'm just saying that's the impression I'm getting also, but until we see the actual mechanics we won't know how it works out.

 

[Aldarc]

So? That's like complaining that the piece of music was composed by someone earlier. The point is in the execution. Knowing what's to come doesn't guarantee that you'll be ready for it.

But in D&D you are not playing precomposed music; you are playing in a jam band that is making it up as you go along.

I did list your position as a strength of D&D as well. Every D&D fight is a new ballgame. But to balance that, you can't have as intricate a fight as a repeatable fight will be.

Iron Heroes.

 

[EATherrian]

Personally, I think that the way Vancian magic forces players to consider resource management is virtually unique in RPGs now, and is part of the essence of the game.

As for the whole "Lets stop & rest- the mage is out of spells" issue, we don't have that problem any more than we have the "Lets stop & rest- the fighter is out of HPs" issue.

In either case, you can try to stop & rest...but that doesn't mean that the DM, the campaign, and the random encounter table (if there is one) will let you.

I agree with you about Vancian magic. It creates an interesting logistics issue, one that I think adds some complexity to the game, but I seem to be in the minority on enjoying it.