D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

Lyxen

Great Old One
So ... the old feeble minded codgers were holding the game back? No ageism here folks ... move along ... yeah, you too gramps ... nothing to see. :mad:

On top of that, sorry, but contrary to 4e, which tried to be extremely innovative and pander to the new generations raised on MMO (and failed so much that as a result, the older concept of PF briefly took the lead as the most successful RPG), 5e has cast back to the origins of the game, so there is serious lack of evidence that in 5e, control has been seized by any younger generation.
 

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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
If the next James Bond was the greatest basketball player and the story a sports film, a lot of people would be disappointed. Though that is entirely the difference between films and TTRPGs. There is only one power house in the industry that enjoys a major pool of available players at any given time or place for people. So this constant fight for what it should be is constantly waged. Tradition is often the whipping post for D&D not changing fast enough for some folks, and also the tent post for those who want no change at all. I believe going forward its going to be design by survey says and thats looking good in traditions favor.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think it's difficult to extricate tradition from fundamental game design that makes the system work for so many people. We could have a "better" system for defenses, but AC and HP are simple and easy to grasp. One person's aspect of the game kept around for tradition as a sacred cow is another person's core system for why the game holds together so well.

There's no lack of innovation and creativity in game designs. D&D has had staying power in part because of brand recognition but history is littered with brands and products that were preeminent and have fallen by the wayside. Some have been made obsolete because of technology, but others are just trends that have come and gone. If another RPG had come along that overall provided a better experience.

Take a look at Pathfinder*. For a long time it was number 2 in popularity for TTRPGs but 3 years after 4E was launched (and more than a year before 5E was announced) it was number 1. Then Pathfinder started slipping in the rankings after 5E had been out a while, not regaining the number 2 slot until PF2 was released.

So my "traditions" are really just things that I think make the game work for a lot of people.
  • Flexibility and no predefined core setting. People run all sorts of games. From super hero lite to grim dark to pirate themes or murder hoboes. It all works because D&D doesn't assume a bunch of lore for every single game.
  • Complexity and simplicity. Yes, the game has more complex than checkers. On the other hand many of the core concepts of ability scores, hit points, armor class are really simple. Spells and magic add in a fair amount of complexity but the core gameplay is fairly easy to grasp for most people.
  • No rules for things we don't need rules for. It might be nice for some people to have more rules around social interactions as an example, but I think it's better left up to the group and DM. The more rules you have the more you have people feeling like they have to have a college course in order to play the game.
  • Monsters. Yeah, I know this is somewhat controversial but I think having clearly defined monsters is a good thing for the game, especially because it can be tossed out the window if you want (although alignment entries in the MM just being default should be emphasized far more). Superhero movies are popular in part because you have clearly defined villains.
  • Easy to comprehend magic system. While the interaction and effects of magic can be complex and specific spells will always be debated, the core magic system is pretty simple. In general your caster has spell slots, once you use that slot it's gone. As much as I don't really care for the system (I'd prefer something like spell or mana points) it is easy to track.
Everything can always be improved, no system will work for everyone. There are certainly aspects of the game I would change. But saying that something that's been there for a long time should be changed just because it's tradition doesn't make sense to me.

*Ranking taken from this thread.
 


Helpful NPC Thom

Adventurer
Tradition defines things. Without tradition, there is only a collection of individual elements that happen to coexist. D&D sans tradition is just an RPG that rolls a d20 for task resolution.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Because the only people who watch it now are old people who want it to play exactly as they remember it when they were kids.

But all the young people of today realize the current game of baseball sucks because most of those traditions are ridiculous and make the game longer and less interesting than the 37,000 other things they could be doing with their time. Which means the old people can still enjoy their old game, but should be prepared for it to dry up and evaporate as each of those old people begin to die off.

The difference with D&D is that its control was gained by the young people when the old people messed up handling it, and thus they were able to change it and save it from itself. Which is why it is still a popular past-time that has become one with the current times, even if its experience differs from the experience the old people remember.
1. You've never been to a baseball game apparently
2. You seem to forget 4e, which blows your entire argument out of the water on its own
3. Those "old people" now were young people once when the game took off, and were core in creating it. Gygax was in his early 40s during the skyrocket of D&D--younger than Crawford is now. And many of the key contributors (Skip Williams, etc) were young during that time. Heck Skip was obviously younger in TSR era than he was when he worked on 3e (when you say young people saved the game from old people), so again, your argument doesn't seem to hold water.
4. Jonathan Tweet (3e lead designer) was what? 35 when 3e came out?

Age has nothing to do with it. I've mentioned this before, but it always strikes me odd that on a forum that is really really good at addressing comments that are anti-inclusive, ageism seems to get a free pass.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In other words, tradition is valuable in and of itself, and you need not just good reason, but a very good reason (emphasis added) for it. And that leads to a big problem: A lot of people are very unwilling to even consider changes to traditions they currently like, even if those changes would actually be useful to them.
It doesn't lead to any problems. I don't care if something else is also going to be useful to me, because what is already there is useful to me. And change that is more useful, but changes the feel of D&D, is ultimately less useful to me, as I'm not going to use it. For me to back a significant change, it needs to be demonstrably harmful to someone else.

Also, this is for significant changes to existing rules. Minor changes like low AC to high AC aren't a big deal. Additions like adding a skill system to the game(2e) is usually okay as well.
 
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Endroren

Adventurer
Publisher
Tradition by its nature ties us to what came before. Tradition in an RPG means that we aren't just interacting with the game on the table today, but with every game we've ever played. It's like my extended-family's cottage. To outsiders it's just an older cottage showing its age and not all that great. To family it's a touchpoint in everyone's history and connects to people both with us and not with us and a ton of experiences.

I think that is why tradition matters so much to people. It connects us to the past, shows a path to the future, and provides attachments to other people beyond our table.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Trouble is, I came in in the early 80s with B/X and AD&D. So most of the changes WotC made to D&D means that modern D&D just doesn't feel like D&D.

It seems to me that when you started doesn't determine what you like about the game. I, and others around here, also started in the early 80s, and like the modern game just fine as D&D.

Things like zero to hero characters in the old days compared to superheroes to gods in the WotC version of the game.

The Immortals set came out in 1986. Going to godlike power is not "modern".
 

I think it's difficult to extricate tradition from fundamental game design that makes the system work for so many people. We could have a "better" system for defenses, but AC and HP are simple and easy to grasp.
It's quite rare that you see someone make a perfectly reasonable statement and then just BLOW OFF THEIR ENTIRE FOOT with the end of the statement. :p

AC and HP are no question, the biggest, hardest things to get people new to RPGs to really understand about D&D (aside from Vancian casting), in my experience anyway. HP, like, so many people, even when it's explained well, just sort of see it as meat-points. Even people raised in the age of computer games, where every character as a red bar, can get confused by HP. And the number of times I've seen newer players get hung up AC and how it doesn't make sense (and indeed, virtually no video game uses a system anything like it, almost all use damage reduction primarily), is just huge.

I do think there's some real truth in your "fundamental game design" being hard to separate from "tradition". And I don't see HP/AC going away soon because sacred cows and the fact that they differentiate D&D and its derivatives from other RPGs, but they are not a good example for your case.

They cause problems which often cause hang-ups for new players too, like HP gets in the way of KO'ing enemies from stealth and the like, something virtually every new player I've encountered post-2000 expects to be able to do (and there are D&D-derivative RPGs which have systems which work for it, but the existence of HP as a thing you must deplete complicates the issue).

I'd like to look at the rest of your points, because I think they're interesting:

Flexibility and no core setting - Yeah this is "D&D thing", it's unusual to have an RPG with such specific rules but no core setting, and yeah it's an asset to D&D.

Complexity and simplicity - I just can't agree, post-2000, that D&D is particularly easy-to-learn or that it's necessarily complex and simple in the right places. I think I understand why people would believe that, but I've introduced quite a few people new to RPGs, to various RPGs, including 4E and 5E, and 5E has not been one of the ones which people were really easily grasping in terms of rules and how the game flowed. It doesn't perform great here, in my experience. It's far, far better than a lot of '90s RPGs, or stuff like Exalted, but it's nowhere near as good as things like PtbA and Resistance (which ironically new-to-RPGs players may adapt to more easily than dyed-in-the-wool players).

No rules for things we don't need rules for - This is an incredibly subjective claim, and I think it is actually a problematic tradition, not so much in that we need "more rules for social stuff", which I agree we don't, but in that, D&D wastes huge amounts of time on stuff we don't need rules for, and doesn't even have much in the way of guidelines/suggestions for stuff that would be really helpful. You see this hampering new DMs all the time in my experience. For example, no rules for knocking someone out from surprise or the like is an actual problem. Not having rules for that is bad. Spending tons of time on rules about overland travel? That's pointless wibble that 90% of groups will barely engage with. I think 5E particularly shows a real confusion about what we "need rules for", and Pathfinder was far, far worse, (3.XE was also terrible here), with huge amounts of rules for stuff we didn't need rules for. This is a place where things could be improved and where traditions about having rules for X but not Y are actively harmful imho.

Monsters - I don't think anyone thinks having monsters is actually a problem. I think the issue is much more that the idea that everyone of X intelligent species is evil is the problem. Superhero movies almost never do that. They'll often have the villains be X species, but there will likely be some positive characters from X species too. And most villains in superhero movies are either ex-humans, the same species as good guys (c.f. Zod etc.) or unique beings.

Easy to comprehend magic system - I think I largely agree with you here, but I'd say D&D is very much in the middle re: easy to comprehend magic. I think there's quite a lot of complexity and even though 5E improved the situation, the way spells work in 5E is still fundamentally alien to pretty much all literary magic, which virtually all works on the basis of drawing from a well of mana, or exhausting the caster (or both), or is just limitless. I think we could improve whilst keeping tradition here by ditching the Vancian system entirely for every class except Wizards. Everyone else gets spellpoints or similar. It'd be easier to understand for 99% of new players and I think even an awful lot of old players would be happier - not like this is a shocking novelty either given there were people doing this in 1975.

Thank you for giving me some good jumping-off points to think about things!

I think the main "traditions" for D&D which I'd see as being worth maintaining are the race/lineage and class (inc. subclass/kit whatever) basic way of building a PC, combined with gaining levels to gain power. I'd also probably keep HP despite the problems they cause, just I think add a couple of simple systems to reduce those problems.
It seems to me that when you started doesn't determine what you like about the game. I, and others around here, also started in the early 80s, and like the modern game just fine as D&D.
Strongly agree. I've seen plenty of people who started later, even as late as 3E, who liked more "old-fashioned" approaches more than I did starting in 1989.
 

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