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D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

Why do we have so many editions for what is essentially the same game? If tradition matters so much, shouldn't we still be playing first edition(s) in Greyhawk and Blackmoor?

I don't know. I can't answer that because tradition isn't that important to me. Especially in games. Nothing ever changes or evolves if nobody ever looks to the future because everyone is too busy playing in the past.

For example, how many times has the Temple of Elemental Evil been revised and printed? Has anyone replayed it every time it comes out? Maybe there are, but I'm betting its not the majority.

That said, I think the re-telling of old modules in a new way are a worthwhile endeavor. Princes of the Apocalypse took elements of ToEE and made it an entirely new experience. That is not tradition, however. It is homage. That is looking back and forward simultaneously, which I think better serves the community better than hamstringing it with outdated ideas and tropes.
 

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So ... the old feeble minded codgers were holding the game back? No ageism here folks ... move along ... yeah, you too gramps ... nothing to see. :mad:
They're holding BASEBALL back, absolutely. That's why we can't get a gosh-darned pitch clock once and for all so these gosh-darned pitchers don't take 2 whole freaking minutes between single pitches, which keep sending the game spiralling past the four hour mark and young people scurrying as far away from the ballpark as possible. :)

And no, old players aren't holding D&D back at all. Because despite some people's desires to maintain certain bits of the old style of D&D... the game has moved on. It always has and it always will.
 

Tradition is like a thing isn't particularly important to me, but sometimes the old ways are still the best ways. When it comes to creating a memorable dungeon crawling experience you could do a lot worse than exploration turns, wandering monsters, and XP for gold. Pathfinder Second Edition's embrace of a lot of old school ethos is a big part of the reason I like it so much. stuff like exploration turns and puzzle box monster design practically define what D&D is to me.
 


1. You've never been to a baseball game apparently
2. You seem to forget 4e, which blows your entire argument out of the water on its own
3. Those "old people" now were young people once when the game took off, and were core in creating it. Gygax was in his early 40s during the skyrocket of D&D--younger than Crawford is now. And many of the key contributors (Skip Williams, etc) were young during that time. Heck Skip was obviously younger in TSR era than he was when he worked on 3e (when you say young people saved the game from old people), so again, your argument doesn't seem to hold water.
4. Jonathan Tweet (3e lead designer) was what? 35 when 3e came out?

Age has nothing to do with it. I've mentioned this before, but it always strikes me odd that on a forum that is really really good at addressing comments that are anti-inclusive, ageism seems to get a free pass.
1. Not at any major league park recently, no. Because the costs are outrageous and my kids have no desire to sit in a stadium for over four hours waiting for the game to inch along. And my kids ain't the only ones in the US who feel that way (if the national television ratings are any indication.) ;)
2. 4E is a part of the evolution of D&D. Just because 5E moved away from 4E (like 4E moved away from 3E, 3E from 2E etc. etc.) doesn't mean it was a mistake to evolve in the first place.
3. Of course they were young when they made their contributions. They always are, that's the point. Younger people join the company and the older ones leave or are let go, allowing the younger people to then evolve the game from where it was. That's how this all works. If all the rules of AD&D were worth keeping, they would have been. But most of them were not so they weren't.
 

On top of that, sorry, but contrary to 4e, which tried to be extremely innovative and pander to the new generations raised on MMO (and failed so much that as a result, the older concept of PF briefly took the lead as the most successful RPG), 5e has cast back to the origins of the game, so there is serious lack of evidence that in 5e, control has been seized by any younger generation.
Did we go back to negative ACs? Do we have lower ability scores for female characters? Are orcs only ever Chaotic Evil? There are thousands of bits of Basic and AD&D rules that the game doesn't use anymore because it was determined through years of gameplay that there were better and easier ways to play. I mean, I don't know how anyone could deny this fact. Even with bits and bobs that are throwbacks and callback to classical ideas, the 5E game is still a more modern RPG than AD&D.
 

1. Not at any major league park recently, no. Because the costs are outrageous and my kids have no desire to sit in a stadium for over four hours waiting for the game to inch along. And my kids ain't the only ones in the US who feel that way (if the national television ratings are any indication.) ;)
2. 4E is a part of the evolution of D&D. Just because 5E moved away from 4E (like 4E moved away from 3E, 3E from 2E etc. etc.) doesn't mean it was a mistake to evolve in the first place.
3. Of course they were young when they made their contributions. They always are, that's the point. Younger people join the company and the older ones leave or are let go, allowing the younger people to then evolve the game from where it was. That's how this all works. If all the rules of AD&D were worth keeping, they would have been. But most of them were not so they weren't.
While I don't know Jeremey's exact age, I know he went to high school with my friend, so I'm pretty certain he's almost 50. During D&D reclaim to popularity, and the people that "saved" it from the previous edition (4e), someone who is not young was in charge of that.

Or look at one of the most popular influences to D&D today: Critical Role. All but two of them are over 40, and Matt is almost 40. Not exactly "the youth evolving the game."

The evolution of the game had nothing to to with the young people making all of the progress. sorry, the facts don't bear that out. It's progress that mirror society in general, regardless of the age of people involved.
 

Tradition is like a thing isn't particularly important to me, but sometimes the old ways are still the best ways. When it comes to creating a memorable dungeon crawling experience you could do a lot worse than exploration turns, wandering monsters, and XP for gold. Pathfinder Second Edition's embrace of a lot of old school ethos is a big part of the reason I like it so much. stuff like exploration turns and puzzle box monster design practically define what D&D is to me.
I agree, PF2 seems to be a nice marriage of traditional ideas with modern RPG design. I think folks often fall into the trap you need one or the other. They can often work together for a great experience.
 

It's quite rare that you see someone make a perfectly reasonable statement and then just BLOW OFF THEIR ENTIRE FOOT with the end of the statement. :p

AC and HP are no question, the biggest, hardest things to get people new to RPGs to really understand about D&D (aside from Vancian casting), in my experience anyway. HP, like, so many people, even when it's explained well, just sort of see it as meat-points. Even people raised in the age of computer games, where every character as a red bar, can get confused by HP. And the number of times I've seen newer players get hung up AC and how it doesn't make sense (and indeed, virtually no video game uses a system anything like it, almost all use damage reduction primarily), is just huge.

I do think there's some real truth in your "fundamental game design" being hard to separate from "tradition". And I don't see HP/AC going away soon because sacred cows and the fact that they differentiate D&D and its derivatives from other RPGs, but they are not a good example for your case.

They cause problems which often cause hang-ups for new players too, like HP gets in the way of KO'ing enemies from stealth and the like, something virtually every new player I've encountered post-2000 expects to be able to do (and there are D&D-derivative RPGs which have systems which work for it, but the existence of HP as a thing you must deplete complicates the issue).

I'd like to look at the rest of your points, because I think they're interesting:

Flexibility and no core setting - Yeah this is "D&D thing", it's unusual to have an RPG with such specific rules but no core setting, and yeah it's an asset to D&D.

Complexity and simplicity - I just can't agree, post-2000, that D&D is particularly easy-to-learn or that it's necessarily complex and simple in the right places. I think I understand why people would believe that, but I've introduced quite a few people new to RPGs, to various RPGs, including 4E and 5E, and 5E has not been one of the ones which people were really easily grasping in terms of rules and how the game flowed. It doesn't perform great here, in my experience. It's far, far better than a lot of '90s RPGs, or stuff like Exalted, but it's nowhere near as good as things like PtbA and Resistance (which ironically new-to-RPGs players may adapt to more easily than dyed-in-the-wool players).

No rules for things we don't need rules for - This is an incredibly subjective claim, and I think it is actually a problematic tradition, not so much in that we need "more rules for social stuff", which I agree we don't, but in that, D&D wastes huge amounts of time on stuff we don't need rules for, and doesn't even have much in the way of guidelines/suggestions for stuff that would be really helpful. You see this hampering new DMs all the time in my experience. For example, no rules for knocking someone out from surprise or the like is an actual problem. Not having rules for that is bad. Spending tons of time on rules about overland travel? That's pointless wibble that 90% of groups will barely engage with. I think 5E particularly shows a real confusion about what we "need rules for", and Pathfinder was far, far worse, (3.XE was also terrible here), with huge amounts of rules for stuff we didn't need rules for. This is a place where things could be improved and where traditions about having rules for X but not Y are actively harmful imho.

Monsters - I don't think anyone thinks having monsters is actually a problem. I think the issue is much more that the idea that everyone of X intelligent species is evil is the problem. Superhero movies almost never do that. They'll often have the villains be X species, but there will likely be some positive characters from X species too. And most villains in superhero movies are either ex-humans, the same species as good guys (c.f. Zod etc.) or unique beings.

Easy to comprehend magic system - I think I largely agree with you here, but I'd say D&D is very much in the middle re: easy to comprehend magic. I think there's quite a lot of complexity and even though 5E improved the situation, the way spells work in 5E is still fundamentally alien to pretty much all literary magic, which virtually all works on the basis of drawing from a well of mana, or exhausting the caster (or both), or is just limitless. I think we could improve whilst keeping tradition here by ditching the Vancian system entirely for every class except Wizards. Everyone else gets spellpoints or similar. It'd be easier to understand for 99% of new players and I think even an awful lot of old players would be happier - not like this is a shocking novelty either given there were people doing this in 1975.

Thank you for giving me some good jumping-off points to think about things!

I think the main "traditions" for D&D which I'd see as being worth maintaining are the race/lineage and class (inc. subclass/kit whatever) basic way of building a PC, combined with gaining levels to gain power. I'd also probably keep HP despite the problems they cause, just I think add a couple of simple systems to reduce those problems.

Strongly agree. I've seen plenty of people who started later, even as late as 3E, who liked more "old-fashioned" approaches more than I did starting in 1989.

Just goes to show that tradition, good enough game design an opinion make this whole topic difficult. I have yet to hear of a replacement for AC and HP that would be easier to grasp, most are more finicky and difficult to track as an example. Whether something is "easier to understand" such as spell points in game terms is debatable. With spell slots it's easier to balance from a gameplay perspective and I can't think of anything simpler than you cast a spell at a given level and check off a box. Out of boxes? No more casting spells at that level.

I've taught a lot of newbies and no one has had difficulty with the majority of concepts, although there will always be overlapping rules and interactions that will cause confusion I think D&D makes decent compromises.

So good luck trying to separate out "tradition" and "what makes D&D work". They tried to renovate D&D with 4E and while it worked better for some, it wasn't good for sales in the long term. In any case, I gave my list, feel free to give yours.
 

Age has nothing to do with it. I've mentioned this before, but it always strikes me odd that on a forum that is really really good at addressing comments that are anti-inclusive, ageism seems to get a free pass
Happens all the time, and the denials that it's ageism get trotted out quickly too.
 

Into the Woods

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