D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

[DEFCON 1]

While I don't know Jeremey's exact age, I know he went to high school with my friend, so I'm pretty certain he's almost 50. During D&D reclaim to popularity, and the people that "saved" it from the previous edition (4e), someone who is not young was in charge of that.

Or look at one of the most popular influences to D&D today: Critical Role. All but two of them are over 40, and Matt is almost 40. Not exactly "the youth evolving the game."

The evolution of the game had nothing to to with the young people making all of the progress. sorry, the facts don't bear that out. It's progress that mirror society in general, regardless of the age of people involved.

They are all over 40 because they've been working for 5, 10, 20 years with their respective things this entire time. They're older NOW, but they weren't these ages when they started.

But hey... if Jeremy and Chris Perkins are still the ones who ultimately design 6E, rather than WotC bringing in people like James Haeck or Makenzie De Armas to take over the reins... then you can feel satisfied in your belief that the older designers of previous editions still control how the game progresses over the years.

 

[Oofta]

They are all over 40 because they've been working for 5, 10, 20 years with their respective things this entire time. They're older NOW, but they weren't these ages when they started.

But hey... if Jeremy and Chris Perkins are still the ones who ultimately design 6E, rather than WotC bringing in people like James Haeck or Makenzie De Armas to take over the reins... then you can feel satisfied in your belief that the older designers of previous editions still control how the game progresses over the years.

Why does she ever come into the conversation? Age doesn't define creativity or quality.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

In other words, tradition is valuable in and of itself, and you need not just good reason, but a very good reason (emphasis added) for it. And that leads to a big problem: A lot of people are very unwilling to even consider changes to traditions they currently like, even if those changes would actually be useful to them.

I agree with you that tradition should not be a reason to hold back advances. But I would concentrate on a different issue, and one I agree with. Which is to say- yes, tradition is valuable in and of itself (regardless of whether you need a good or very good or even sorta good reason for the threshold for change). There are two primary reasons for this-

A. Standing on the shoulders of giants. There should be a presumption that people who were doing something a certain way had a good reason for doing it. That doesn't mean they were right, and that doesn't mean that even if they were right, there aren't better ways, but just that we should be more careful with sweeping away past practices than we are when we are working with a blank slate. In other words, there are slightly different considerations when you are creating something new and from scratch than when you are changing something that already exists.

B. In addition, there is value to continuity, ritual, and tradition. The easiest and most understandable examples are family traditions (such as those we might associate with holidays). There can be independent value simply in the communal exercise of those traditions. But the value of families, groups, and communities bonding over shared experiences over time can be amazing. Just to provide a completely banal example I just saw- there was a homecoming game (football) recently at a local high school, and while some things had changed (I don't think the marching band in the 50s was playing the Weeknd and Lady Gaga and Billie Eilish), some of the events and fight songs and traditions went back more than 80 years, and you had people going back multiple generations sharing in it. Which is kind of cool!


Now, with that said, I'd point out that this is a (+) thread, and people are supposed to be contributing examples of traditions they value in D&D, not arguing against the concept.

Why do I value tradition in D&D? Because I find comfort in seeing younger players take many of the same concepts that I explored decades ago, and putting their own spin on them. I enjoy being able to hear stories from today, and from 40 years ago, about surviving an encounter with a beholder. About the joys of the fireball. About the treasure trove that was "this big!" About the fighter that was too dumb to live, to strong to die. About the time that the only thing that could save you was rolling a 20, and it happened!

I'm glad that things are different now. I'm sure it's better for the people coming up. But I also treasure the through-line, the continuity, the tradition ... that emotional bond I can share.

It's like the most positive form of nostalgia- instead of being the jealous preserve of us olds, though, it's a shared joy across generations.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Just goes to show that tradition, good enough game design an opinion make this whole topic difficult. I have yet to hear of a replacement for AC and HP that would be easier to grasp, most are more finicky and difficult to track as an example. Whether something is "easier to understand" such as spell points in game terms is debatable. With spell slots it's easier to balance from a gameplay perspective and I can't think of anything simpler than you cast a spell at a given level and check off a box. Out of boxes? No more casting spells at that level.

AC and HP were things I used to dislike when I was younger, and they still do offend my simulationist sensibilities if I think them too hard. But I've come to grudgingly accept that in practice they work well and serve their purpose.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Why does she ever come into the conversation? Age doesn't define creativity or quality.

I pulled two names out a hat of the young designers of D&D who I think would have a much better chance of being employed at WotC when they begin designing 6E. I mean, what else do you think is going to happen? You think they're going to rehire Jim Ward or Rob Kuntz or Jonathan Tweet or Wolfgang Baur or Rodney Thompson to design 6E?

 

[Sacrosanct]

They are all over 40 because they've been working for 5, 10, 20 years with their respective things this entire time. They're older NOW, but they weren't these ages when they started.

You're contradicting yourself. You said the young people had to rescue the game from the old people. When I pointed out how the old people were young once as well, you dismissed that because they were old now, and the game needed youth and fresh ideas to save it.. Now you're excusing the CR team because despite their age now during their biggest contribution time period, they played before. You can't have it both ways.

Some of the most influential changes to D&D now are being made by middle aged or older people. Not just the youth. Therefore, your claim of the youth saving the game from older player is just factually wrong.

Even anecdotally, I started in 1981, but my most recent product incorporates modern design ideas. So again, changes in game evolution seem to be based on evolution of ideas as a society on a whole, and not related to age of the person at all. What you're doing is making an assumption based on someone's age, assigning a pejorative aspect to one age group, when the facts don't support that at all. That's ageism, and I'm asking you to stop.

But hey... if Jeremy and Chris Perkins are still the ones who ultimately design 6E, rather than WotC bringing in people like James Haeck or Makenzie De Armas to take over the reins... then you can feel satisfied in your belief that the older designers of previous editions still control how the game progresses over the years.

Red herring and strawman. I never made that claim nor expressed that belief.

 

[J.Quondam]

My favorite D&D tradition is how DMs and players have always changed it.

 

[Oofta]

I pulled two names out a hat of the young designers of D&D who I think would have a much better chance of being employed at WotC when they begin designing 6E. I mean, what else do you think is going to happen? You think they're going to rehire Jim Ward or Rob Kuntz or Jonathan Tweet or Wolfgang Baur or Rodney Thompson to design 6E?

I think people should be judged by what they say and produce. While no one is perfect, I try not to judge by age. Or race. Or creed.

I don't see why age coming into the conversation is any less objectionable than the latter two.

 

[Oofta]

Form another thread, I thought of a different tradition that I like about D&D. The tradition that the best, most effective groups, are made up of people with different talents and skills. Maybe my PC isn't a jock, but they're smart. Maybe my guy has a hard time counting past ten without taking off his shoes, but helps protect that squishy braniac in the back. Along with that there's the tradition (at least for me) that you don't have to be super optimized to contribute.

 

[Umbran]

I don't see why age coming into the conversation is any less objectionable than the latter two.

Mod Note:
Indeed, this thread is not about who is going to develop the game in the future. This is supposed to be about how tradition is important to each of us. So let us bring this back onto topic, please and thanks.