Why Metamagic Feats?

[ARandomGod]

At least you've covered all the bases.

Players are lazy, DMs are lazy, and the Designers are lazy.

Time to kick back and bask in the fulness of our sloth.


The next logical step would be to not take any feats at all and research spells to replace any feat you actually want but won't waste a feat slot on.

Hrmmm... I imagine that this *could* be done. But a lot of them would be really silly. Why research "weapon focus" why there's an enchant item spell already. If you wanted an overlap you should research a luck or insight spell instead. Plus a lot of those would be difficult to properly place in "power".

Improved initiative, for another example. You could base that off of haste, but it's mainly useful *before* combat. So you'd need a very long duration. I doubt it would be worth a spell.

 

[Voadam]

Cone of cold is a horrific comparison. Use an actual GOOD spell to make even a halfway decent comparison. And look at more spells for that matter, you have to see a *pattern*.

Are you joking? What other direct damage 5th level core spell do you suggest an empowered fireball be compared to? Everything else does different types of effects.

A researched 5th level fireball should be roughly equivalent to the existing 5th level evocation direct damage area core spell.

5TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Mage’s Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Conj
Cloudkill: Kills 3 HD or less; 4–6 HD save or die, 6+ HD take Con damage.
Mage’s Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard, attack.
Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
Planar Binding, Lesser: Traps extraplanar creature of 6 HD or less until it performs a task.
Secret Chest F: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Div
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 +1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.
Ench
Dominate Person: Controls humanoid telepathically.
Feeblemind: Subject’s Int and Cha drop to 1.
Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
Mind Fog: Subjects in fog get –10 to Wis and Will checks.
Symbol of Sleep M: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Evoc
Cone of Cold: 1d6/level cold damage.
Interposing Hand: Hand provides cover against one opponent.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Wall of Force:Wall is immune to damage.
Illus
Dream: Sends message to anyone sleeping.
False Vision M: Fools scrying with an illusion.
Mirage Arcana: As hallucinatory terrain, plus structures.
Nightmare: Sends vision dealing 1d10 damage, fatigue.
Persistent Image: As major image, but no concentration required.
Seeming: Changes appearance of one person per two levels.
Shadow Evocation: Mimics evocation below 5th level, but only 20% real.
Necro
Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Magic Jar F: Enables possession of another creature.
Symbol of Pain M: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
Trans
Animal Growth: One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Baleful Polymorph: Transforms subject into harmless animal.
Fabricate: Transforms raw materials into finished items.
Overland Flight: You fly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.
Passwall: Creates passage through wood or stone wall.
Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature.
Transmute Mud to Rock: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Univ
Permanency X:Makes certain spells permanent.

 

[sfedi]

The fact is, Fireball is too good for it's level.
Maximum possible damage AND an area spell. Maximum range (i.e. Long)
You can't get better than that.

Sure, the DMG suggestts a cap of 1d6 damage per level, but one thing is to deliver this amount of damage to one creature, and another ENTIRELY different is to deliver ti as an area attack spell.

 

[ARandomGod]

Are you joking? What other direct damage 5th level core spell do you suggest an empowered fireball be compared to? Everything else does different types of effects.

It doesn't have to be direct damage, really. Anything with a numeric power increase can be used as a comparison. The difference between a third and fifth level spell should be relatively similiar to the difference between a fourth and sixth level spell, or a seventh and ninth spell. And "core" is getting pretty picky. If the same people published a spell, they used formulae's they think are good.

But I do take your point that there is a dearth of actual damage dealing spells higher than third level. It's a serious problem IMO, and one of the biggest reasons I detest metamagic feats. These feats are just an excuse to not design proper spells for every level.

 

[ARandomGod]

The fact is, Fireball is too good for it's level.
Maximum possible damage AND an area spell. Maximum range (i.e. Long)
You can't get better than that.

Sure, the DMG suggestts a cap of 1d6 damage per level, but one thing is to deliver this amount of damage to one creature, and another ENTIRELY different is to deliver ti as an area attack spell.

Perhaps. Magic missile is also too good for it's level. In fact, against a single target MM often does more damage than a fireball would. A LOT more if that target is a rogue (or any of a number of other factors).

In fact, one could make a decent arguement stating that in general spells are too powerful. I've even seen it done recently here at EnWorld.

 

[sfedi]

Perhaps. Magic missile is also too good for it's level. In fact, against a single target MM often does more damage than a fireball would. A LOT more if that target is a rogue (or any of a number of other factors).

Right.

In fact, one could make a decent arguement stating that in general spells are too powerful. I've even seen it done recently here at EnWorld.

Of course, that's the bottom line of it all.

Can you post some links to these threads?

 

[ARandomGod]

Of course, that's the bottom line of it all.

Can you post some links to these threads?

I can post a link to one, that I saw just recently:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=136557

I've seen similiar thoughts/comments/feelings from people before.

 

[ARandomGod]

I've seen similiar thoughts/comments/feelings from people before.

I mean, there's the whole "low magic/no magic" phenomena.