Why new editions are good for the game

I'm in agreement here. Personally, I feel like 4E fits my style of play very well (granted, it has its problems but that's for another post). It's a great thing for players when a new edition is released because now they have the option of playing in any of the existing editions. If you prefer 3.5, play 3.5. I'll play 4E, but if my friends want another 3.5 campaign sometime, I'd do that too. New editions mean new options, and yes, that is a good thing.
 

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haakon1 said:
I agree those are the primary reasons new editions are made, but I don't agree that it's a good thing. (For AD&D and 3/3.5, I just played by core rules and focused on story and adventure, rather than builds and splat, so edition bloat doesn't affect the games I run.)

Lots of good responses but I'll focus on this one.

I agree that many groups do limit themselves to the core rules or core plus a limited number of splatbooks. It does make the game a great deal simpler and prevents the group from spinning their wheels trying to get character concepts to work.

However, a lot of groups aren't like this. Typically IME a good DM is willing to allow players to create esoteric character types, at least if he knows (or is pretty sure) that the player in question isn't trying to create something that is going to throw the campaign out of whack. Late in a product cycle however it's pretty tough to see sometimes how a build will turn out.

As a matter of fact your group is probably one of the big reasons why such an edition cycle is necessary. You aren't buying the splatbooks. You have your core books, plus maybe a couple extras that caught your eye. Wizards is no longer getting money from you. They want your money, they need your money so they come out with new corebooks to get you buying again. I'm not saying that 4E is your 'fault' but if the splatbooks continually sold well there'd be no business reason to replace 3.5.

Also lets face it. Wizards relies on those splatbook sales to make them money until a new edition is released. Unless they adopted a 'freelance only' model which I believe would be untenable for a company the size of Wizards they need to make enough money to keep the lights on and the staff paid. Splatbooks let them do this.

In response to a couple of the other posters I disagree that they can rely on continued sales of the corebooks for healthy sales, at least not without a very expensive marketing campaign. The D&D movies released to date have not done well, and I think a lot of that is due to the relatively poor reputation the D&D brand has in wider society. We (as gamers) like to believe that the D&D brand name carries a lot of clout but lets face it, to a lot of people we're still nerdy little Satan worshipers, who sit in basements, dress up and pretend to be elves. This is a problem that goes beyond edition wars. It's one that TSR and WoTC have both tried to address in the past to varying degrees of success but it's far from solved, and if anything 'dumbing down' (a charge laid at every edition of D&D that I've seen released) the rules is an attempt to find a solution and break into a wider market..
 

As an example of what I mean when I say we're still a tiny market, look at the hooplah surrounding the Shadowrun game that was recently released on the X-Box 360. Shadowrun players decried the changes that were made to the game, I won't get into what they screwed up because well it'd take too long but they were changes that made the 3.X to 4E transition seem like houserules. The most common arguments used by X-Box gamers (a much larger market) was that, you guessed it, the PnP gamers were weird little troglodytes clinging to a stupid, slow paced and boring game.

At the end of the day Shadowrun 360 failed because it was a poorly designed game, but even if it was a massive success it was categorically and almost universally accepted by the Shadowrun community as something not Shadowrun.
 

New editions also lower the barrier of entry for new players.

Right now, there is not that large a gap in rules mastery between a longtime year RPG veteran and a new player. Nor is there as much of a cash committment to be "up-to-date" on the entire product line.

Two years from, neither statment will be true.

Four years from now, both will be laughable.
 

nothing to see here said:
New editions also lower the barrier of entry for new players.

Right now, there is not that large a gap in rules mastery between a longtime year RPG veteran and a new player. Nor is there as much of a cash committment to be "up-to-date" on the entire product line.

Two years from, neither statment will be true.

Four years from now, both will be laughable.

Very true. The same holds true for returning players. My 4E group actually has an old highschool gaming buddy of mine who due to life issues missed the boat with 3rd edition. By the time things had settled down for him and he was interested in getting back into D&D the system was so huge he got gun-shy of trying to pick it up, and ended up missing out. He's getting into 4th on the ground floor though so he can keep up with the system as it grows.
 

haakon1 said:
So to summarize:
-- Game companies want our money, and they haven't fully worked out a subscription model yet. So, instead they need to periodically churn the market and sell essentially the same products to the same people.

-- People like new splat.

-- People love to overcomplicate the game by playing complex characters with rules from 5 different splatbooks. When the rules for that become too cumbersome, they need new rules to reset them to a half-elf wizard.

I agree those are the primary reasons new editions are made, but I don't agree that it's a good thing. (For AD&D and 3/3.5, I just played by core rules and focused on story and adventure, rather than builds and splat, so edition bloat doesn't affect the games I run.)

If WOTC can switch from selling splatbooks to surviving by subscription model, they won't NEED to put out new editions, but they may choose to do so.

Yup.

Let's not forget that, with 3.x, WotC moved the game away from focusing on what the characters do in an immersive fantasy world to what the characters are. Front-loading choices in character creation might have led to limitations in earlier editions, but it also led to an almost non-existent concern about "character builds".

RC
 

Imperialus said:
As a matter of fact your group is probably one of the big reasons why such an edition cycle is necessary. You aren't buying the splatbooks. You have your core books, plus maybe a couple extras that caught your eye. Wizards is no longer getting money from you. They want your money, they need your money so they come out with new corebooks to get you buying again. I'm not saying that 4E is your 'fault' but if the splatbooks continually sold well there'd be no business reason to replace 3.5...

Could it be the quality and approach of WOTC's supplements in general be the reason that are not getting my money? That's not to say that they didn't have some stuff that I found really worthwhile (e.g., Unearthed Arcana, Fiendish Codex I, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horror, Stormwrack) , but, with most of their supplements, I am lucky to find 5-10 pages of material that I found to be worthwhile. The same generally holds true for their d20 Modern stuff. So, I give my money to the companies putting out the stuff I do like and, imo, improve the game for me- Adamant, Green Ronin, RPGObjects and the occassional product from other companies like EN Publishing (the Elements of Magic line), Malhavoc (Book of Iron Might), Mystic Eye Games (Artificer's Handbook).

4e is just picking up with WOTC providing more of the types of mechanics that I don't like with a couple of decent bits (e.g., making (most) non-biological racial abilities into feats, more hp to start, and to a degree the mutliclassing rules).
 
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Tetsubo said:
Except for those that have no interest in a subscription model. I would never pay for such a game. I want my gaming products printed on paper and in my hand. I don't want loads of digital content. I want Dragon and Dungeon back in PRINT. Yeah, I'm a grognard. But I've dumped more money into gaming products then many Wiz-bro suits make in annual earnings. *I* am their core demographic. And all they have done is piss me off.

New editions should be launched to fix actual game mechanics issues. Not just line the pockets of suits at the (literal) expense of the fans.

Vote with your dollar.

Subscription model is about how WOTC taxes us for owning the rights to the name "D&D" -- by subscription or by one-shot book sales which periodically need to be reinvorgated by a new edition cancelling all the old books -- not about whether the content is online or not.

An alternative to stopping production of 3e, Dragon, and Dungeon to sell us 4e or nothing would have been to offer "you gotta pay us if you don't want to close down all sale of D&D products, kill the OGL for all other producers, and kill the FLGS" subscription for $5 a month. They have included a 10 page glossy newsletter too, to put lipstick on the pig. :)

Or maybe they could have charged a tax of $2 a copy on OGL products and Dragon, and not bothered making their own stuff? I believe Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft charge 3rd party publishers for their game consoles a $1 a copy or something for the privilege of selling to the audience they created (by selling consoles at below-production cost).

Shareholders don't care how they get their money, as long as they get their money. It's the designers who insist new stuff must get designed (so that they have jobs). :)
 

Greg K said:
Could it be the quality and approach of WOTC's supplements in general be the reason that are not getting my money? That's not to say that they didn't have some stuff that I found really worthwhile (e.g., Unearthed Arcana, Fiendish Codex I, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horror, Stormwrack) , but, with most of their supplements, I am lucky to find 5-10 pages of material that I found to be worthwhile.

Yup, WOTC is overstaffed and overproducing. Fewer people making a few gems of products would be as profitable, without destroying the game with rules bloat.
 

Greg K said:
Could it be the quality and approach of WOTC's supplements in general be the reason that are not getting my money? That's not to say that they didn't have some stuff that I found really worthwhile (e.g., Unearthed Arcana, Fiendish Codex I, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horror, Stormwrack) , but, with most of their supplements, I am lucky to find 5-10 pages of material that I found to be worthwhile. The same generally holds true for their d20 Modern stuff. So, I give my money to the companies putting out the stuff I do like and, imo, improve the game for me- Adamant, Green Ronin, RPGObjects and the occassional product from other companies like EN Publishing (the Elements of Magic line), Malhavoc (Book of Iron Might), Mystic Eye Games (Artificer's Handbook).

4e is just picking up with WOTC providing more of the types of mechanics that I don't like with a couple of decent bits (e.g., making (most) non-biological racial abilities into feats, more hp to start, and to a degree the mutliclassing rules).

Oh, I agree completely. There are more than a few splatbooks sitting on my shelf that have hardly even had the binding cracked and by no means is it your 'duty' to buy crappy splatbooks for some mythical good of the hobby. It's an industry wide problem however, not confined to D&D. There is a running joke among Shadowrun players for example that any time a Rigger book is released the next edition is almost ready to be announced. Shadowrun is actually quite interesting, because it follows a very predictable product cycle between editions.

The exact order will shift a little bit but you can be pretty sure it will follow this format pretty close. First there is an expansion of the magic rules, a book on Seattle, then a book that advances the metaplot, a book for gunbunnies, a book of Cyberware, a book for deckers/hackers, a book that allows increased character options for everyone, a GM handbook, a rigger book, another plot book, and finally a new edition.

You will get additional setting books scattered throughout the cycle, but these typically focus on individual locations and are relatively edition neutral but basically that's it. That's the development cycle that Shadowrun has followed over 4 editions and 20 years, and you know what, it works. Admittedly on a smaller scale than Wizards (Catalyst has 4 full time employees) but it does work.

I think (hope) Wizards might be trying to mirror a similar development cycle, with a concrete list of what does/doesn't need to be fleshed out already outlined and a plan for how do accomplish this. This would cut down on splatbook bloat, ensure that the books that they are releasing have a specific focus designed towards specific playstyles. It's cool to still have more esoteric books like the Fiendish Codex's and Stormwrack but they are going to appeal to a very specific subset within the D&D community, those that like Demons and those that like water adventures respectively. By releasing a few of those books per edition cycle and keeping them (relatively) edition neutral, expanding rather than contracting options while maintaining a sense of consistency devs can create a sense of continuity for old gamers while keeping things fresh for a new audience.

Dante's Inferno for example, always has been and probably always will be, the hottest runner bar in Seattle, but it has changed throughout editions though it is generally just a small writeup in a larger book. Likewise D&D probably doesn't need a new demon/devil book this edition. They can put their focus somewhere else and if they release OOP books as inexpensive PDF's it will still allow new DM's who want to include Demons and Devils to buy the old edition supplement and convert the fluff at least to their new edition campaign.
 
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