Why no Implement Proficiency?

[Grimstaff]

Apologies if I've missed something here, but, why no Proficiency bonus to hit for spells/abilities that require an Implement to use?

It seems odd that my party's wizard has a better to hit bonus (+3 better!) throwing a dagger than a magic missle. Granted, the magic missile targets Reflex rather than AC, but this doesn't seem to be making a big difference against all the high-dex creatures we're up against at low levels (kobolds, rats, goblins, etc).

Edit: I should add that since a +2 wand adds to the to-hit bonus, just like a +2 dagger does, the implement itself does appear to play a part in the accuracy/damage of the spell and therefore seems proficiency should be appropriate.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Because virtually all implement powers go against a defense other than AC, and such defenses average 2 or 3 points lower than AC for monsters in the MM. If you can go against a monster's weakest defense, it's often 4 or more points lower than it's AC. Proficiency just makes up for AC being so high.

 

[Goumindong]

Its because you can attack different defenses.

 

[Ingolf]

What Tony Vargas said. In addition, don't judge it too much by the way things work at 1st level. Browse the MM and you will see some creatures at higher levels with a considerable delta between AC and the other three defenses. You will also see some where the difference is less severe, so I guess in the end it's at least partly a matter of the spellcasters figuring out which defense to target.

 

[KarinsDad]

There is another reason as well.

The reason that Weapon Proficiencies exist is because the designers did not want to have yet another penalty in the game system for when a Wizard picks up a Shortbow. Instead, the Wizard get +0 to his roll for being non-proficient.

So instead of a penalty, the designers decided to put in a bonus for weapon proficiency that would automatically be part of the character sheet. It is already included in writeups.

There was no reason to do that for Implements. The only characters that can use implements are spell casting types (or PCs who take the appropriate feats).

Hence, the entire reason AC is higher than most other defenses. AC was bumped to handle weapon proficiency, the other defenses do not have weapon proficiency and were not bumped.

I suspect that Fort was bumped due to the type of effects that occur with it.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Most monsters in the manual have at least one defense that is 3 points lower than AC. Some have defenses around 5-7 points below their AC. If a monster has armor, you can be sure all of its defenses are a fair bit lower than AC. For example, your kobolds might have a decent reflex defense, but the minions have fortitude and will defenses 4 points lower than AC, while the dragon shields have reflex and will defenses 5 points lower than AC.

However, I notice that for some creatures, the lowest defense is completely random. For example, you could probably guess that a minotaur has a low reflex defense, but who would expect a goat man's will defense to be higher than his AC. And if you run into Rakshasas, you're screwed, there are four types of them each with a different lowest defense.

I'm thinking of offering the wizards or warlocks in my campaign a spell to deal with the issue.

Libra, Level 2 wizard/warlock utility
You open your enemies mind and learn from it many secrets which tell you its weaknesses and how best to target it.
Daily - Standard action, Implement
Range 20 squares
Target: one creature
Attack: Int vs special
Hit: If the spell hits any of the targets defenses (AC, fort, ref, will) you gain knowledge of which of the targets defenses are easiest to hit. You also learn if any damage types are more or less effective against that creature. For example you might learn that fire is not effective against it (though you don't know if it has resistance, immunity, etc) or that cold will deal extra damage.
Special: If you use this spell on a creature identical to one you have cast it on before, the spell has no effect, and is not expended.

 

[PennStud77]

Yeah, expect that it is not very rare for each class to get a smattering of attacks that target those defenses (albeit occasionally), and those attacks still get the proficiency bonus. In return, the wizard doesn't have the same occasional concession (or bonus for the odd spell that targets AC)

 

[renau1g]

However, I notice that for some creatures, the lowest defense is completely random. For example, you could probably guess that a minotaur has a low reflex defense, but who would expect a goat man's will defense to be higher than his AC. And if you run into Rakshasas, you're screwed, there are four types of them each with a different lowest defense.

I think that unless PC's had experience dealing with any monsters knowing what their lowest or highest stat is would be more metagaming than anything, unless they rolled a requisite skill check. If my PC's use this tactic I just switch defences around, making that minotaur particularly dextrous to help his reflex.

I'm thinking of offering the wizards or warlocks in my campaign a spell to deal with the issue.

Libra, Level 2 wizard/warlock utility
You open your enemies mind and learn from it many secrets which tell you its weaknesses and how best to target it.
Daily - Standard action, Implement
Range 20 squares
Target: one creature
Attack: Int vs special
Hit: If the spell hits any of the targets defenses (AC, fort, ref, will) you gain knowledge of which of the targets defenses are easiest to hit. You also learn if any damage types are more or less effective against that creature. For example you might learn that fire is not effective against it (though you don't know if it has resistance, immunity, etc) or that cold will deal extra damage.
Special: If you use this spell on a creature identical to one you have cast it on before, the spell has no effect, and is not expended.

It might be a bit powerful to know the enemies weakness, especially against a major villian?

 

[deleteme123456]

My PC casters try things out and then remember them "Oh this guy seemed to have a low Fort, I'll try that again" esp. if you run into similar monsters in later encounters (see also: KotS).

I do wish that there were no weapon + non-AC attacks, as these seem really good (but then again, there are things like Sure Strike which no one likes, which is basically what weapon vs reflex amounts to) but then that would really boring for those classes. Perhaps there should be Int + 2 vs. X attacks for wizards. Maybe there are; haven't looked that hard.

 

[Mort_Q]

Isn't that what the Monster Knowledge Checks are for?

That and, when you miss an attack versus XX with a 19... you try a different power.