D&D 5E Why not Alternity? (Or, will or how might WotC do SF?)

[DammitVictor]

Everything I have to say about my disinterest in WotC porting classic D&D settings-- anything that isn't Radiant Triangle-- to the new D&D rules goes double and triple for anything that wasn't even D&D to start with. Science Fiction games (except Star Wars, which isn't science fiction) rely heavily on having deeper and more specialized skill lists: tell me, how do you think D&D's skill system is going to handle Alternity's skill lists?

The D&D 5e class/skill system... would handle Gamma World 8e, as long as it wasn't based on Alternity, though I'll reiterate my preference that WotC not do that. It's not going to wrap itself around Star•Drive or Dark Matter or even StarCraft. And when system and setting collide at Wizards of the Coast, only the system is left standing; the survival of the setting, if it is even considered desirable, is incidental.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sci-Fi not having enough relevance in pop culture? As Fenris mentioned a few examples, I'll take on Guardians of the Galaxy, the Manadalorian, and the upcoming Dune film as all great recent examples.

Now, your second point is more relevant. It's entirely possible WotC find sci-fi as out-of-scope for their RPG teams, and therefore will never attempt it.

I think it's unlikely they'll find it out-of-scope, for one particular reason:

Archetype Entertainment

Archetype Entertainment is a video game studio located in Austin, TX. We build epic story-driven roleplaying games.

www.archetype-entertainment.com

This is WotC's own sci-fi CRPG studio. Created from the ground up by WotC, based on the finest ex-BioWare employees, including "The Guy Everyone Really Liked The Writing Of From Mass Effect", Drew Karpyshyn.

Their self-proclaimed mission, from the page I linked:

To create the greatest science fiction roleplaying games in the world.

And it is obvious from context that they are talking about video games, no question. These people are not developing a TT RPG. But they are developing an IP (the concept art on the page is from the IP, which obviously has a 99% chance of "basically being Mass Effect" - a game series itself riding extremely high right now on the launch of a very successful remaster, which is, hilariously, the best-reviewed PC game released this year so far IIRC).

Now, if that game is remotely successful or looking good, it would obviously be a no-brainer for WotC to produce a TT RPG based on it. They won't need to pay much for art or IP development or work up lore because that'll all be done in the process of creating the video game. Even classes and races are likely to merely be there for the taking.

The video game is probably a minimum of 3 years out, and realistically might well be 4-5, as they're still building the team (they'll need like 200 people, they only have several dozen), but they clearly have concepts and if they make a game that does well, the cross-marketing possibilities are going to have to look pretty sexy to WotC.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I think it's unlikely they'll find it out-of-scope, for one particular reason:

Archetype Entertainment

Archetype Entertainment is a video game studio located in Austin, TX. We build epic story-driven roleplaying games.

www.archetype-entertainment.com

This is WotC's own sci-fi CRPG studio. Created from the ground up by WotC, based on the finest ex-BioWare employees, including "The Guy Everyone Really Liked The Writing Of From Mass Effect", Drew Karpyshyn.

Their self-proclaimed mission, from the page I linked:

To create the greatest science fiction roleplaying games in the world.

And it is obvious from context that they are talking about video games, no question. These people are not developing a TT RPG. But they are developing an IP (the concept art on the page is from the IP, which obviously has a 99% chance of "basically being Mass Effect" - a game series itself riding extremely high right now on the launch of a very successful remaster, which is, hilariously, the best-reviewed PC game released this year so far IIRC).

Now, if that game is remotely successful or looking good, it would obviously be a no-brainer for WotC to produce a TT RPG based on it. They won't need to pay much for art or IP development or work up lore because that'll all be done in the process of creating the video game. Even classes and races are likely to merely be there for the taking.

The video game is probably a minimum of 3 years out, and realistically might well be 4-5, as they're still building the team (they'll need like 200 people, they only have several dozen), but they clearly have concepts and if they make a game that does well, the cross-marketing possibilities are going to have to look pretty sexy to WotC.

Huh, I totally forgot about that. Yeah, that adds some credence to the "maybe their working on something."

I went and checked to see if there were any updates, this being the only thing I could find. That, and in the past 3 months their LinkedIn page is trying to hire designers, animators, etc. So I guess they are ramping up production of whatever it is they're making.

Blur Studios Partners With Archetype Entertainment | Wizards of the Coast

Archetype Entertainment, founded by developers from BioWare and Naughty Dog, is joined by Blur Studios to build a future with brand-new science fiction IPs and video games.

company.wizards.com

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In the revised edition thread I brought up the idea of WotC expanding into science fiction after the 50th anniversary, so in 2025 and beyond, and mentioned Alternity which, for some reason, I always forget about. I think it is because the late 90s were one of the longer fallow periods in my gaming career, when I didn't play for several years (my interest was re-perked when I heard about 3E and discovered a little website called "Eric Noah's 3E News" way back in 1999).

So I missed Alternity, at least when it came out. I did discover it a few years later but while I never played it, I was impressed with how it handled SF with a proto-3E rules set and liked the way it offered different science fiction settings (Star Drive = space opera, Gamma World = post-apocalyptic, Dark Matter = paranormal modern).

Alternity formed the basis for the later d20 Modern and Future games, although I also can't really comment on those, as I didn't play them. But I mention Alternity because I prefer the aesthetic of it; "Alternity" is catchier and more evocative than "d20 Modern" and "d20 Future."

Anyhow, I suggested that after the anniversary in 2024, presumably with revised core rulebooks, that WotC should start the second decade of 5E ("Phase Two") with a broader, more diverse approach to D&D. I'm guessing that over the next few years (2021-23) they will complete "Phase One" by fleshing out the classic D&D game in the form of 5E books, including coverage of the planes and the last of the modern classics, Dark Sun (and possibly Dragonlance, but I think it less likely than the other two). Meaning, "Phase One" is about fleshing out the possibilities of D&D proper, while "Phase Two" would continue that stream, but broaden it, offering a wider range of gaming possibilities, both within fantasy D&D, but also (potentially) non-fantasy gaming. Or that's what I'd like to see, at least!

So what do you think about reviving Alternity, at least as the basic template of a SF game by WotC? Could it be popular? It seems that translating the popularity of D&D to science fiction is a never-fully-realized holy grail of RPGs. Starfinder seems popular enough to keep publishing, but I'm guessing it isn't nearly as popular as Pathfinder. But just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it isn't possible, and of course a SF game doesn't have to be as popular as D&D (it likely never will be) for it to be a success. By "success" I mean ongoing publication, at least beyond a few years - which is what seems to always happen.

On the other hand, WotC might think that the market is already covered, with Fria Ligan's various SF games (Tales from the Loop, Coriolis, Mutant, Alien, etc), Starfinder, Numenera, etc. On the other hand, WotC has something that none of those companies have: a 50 million strong audience who would be more prone to try "D&D in space" or "D&D in a post-apocalyptic America" than something they've never even heard of.

What say you? Do you see WotC expanding beyond fantasy D&D? If so, when and how?

Sasquatch Games created the second edition of Alternity pretty recently. It seems WotC sold the rights. Sasquatch cannot use terms such as "weren", "sesheyan", etc, because they did not buy the rights to the Star Drive setting.

IME it's just harder to have a sci-fi game. A big problem are the tropes. A band of total strangers can meet in an inn and fight a dark lord, but you have to put more effort in a non-fantasy setting. I've seen the following non-fantasy games fall apart, all of which tried something similar: my first d20 Modern campaign, a campaign of All Flesh Must Be Eaten, a Shadowrun campaign, etc. Of course I learned my lesson and have a session zero but it still seems to take more skill.

Furthermore, tech is ill-defined compared to magic items. The two best ways around I found were:

1) Do it very rules light. The first Fate sci-fi campaign I did was amazing. There wasn't such a thing as "my blaster is more powerful than your blaster".
2) Do it very rules heavy. Mutants & Masterminds. Everything you buy has a cost and a descriptor. You want X-ray glasses? Sure. Pay X power points. You want a Mass Effect-style omnitool? Note down the abilities and pay X power points.

D20 Future abjectly failed at this. Possibly the worst example was "genetic engineering", which was not the same thing as mutations, which were different from moreaus. That was also just terribly balanced, as in it made 2nd Edition D&D psionics look balanced.

I would like to play in Star Drive or Dark Matter again. I would probably use Fate or M&M for the former and d20 Modern for the latter. I could potentially use Sasquatch Games, but so far nobody has demonstrated interest. My group are in our late 30s and early 40s and we're getting too old to learn new systems.

 

[Retreater]

I'm still going to go with sci-fi being mostly irrelevant. The latest Star Wars films have seen dwindling success and certainly doesn't carry the cultural weight it used to. The Matrix is an ancient franchise. The Avatar saga has been vaporware, and the original film was forgotten the instant it left the cinema.
But if we want to look at the TTRPG space, has there ever been a successful sci-fi RPG line that isn't tied to an existing property? Even those published by TSR/Wizards fizzled out within a couple years - even less successful than 4e.

 

[Fenris-77]

So the Mandalorian wasn't wildly popular? Or the Expanse? C'mon, there are lots of recent examples.

 

[Reynard]

I think it is effectively impossible that WotC won't release a sci TTRPG in conjunction with their sci fi CRPG. I bet Mearls is hard at work on it, even.

 

[Lycurgon]

I don't see it happening. Creating a new Sci-fi game would cost more money and time than creating another D&D suppliment book. And it would make less money in return. So why would WotC take a risk like that when they can keep with a proven product line.

I think they will just leave it to 3rd party publishers to make such products. There are already a large number of 5e compatible Sci-fi products out there, some of which sell well but nowhere near the levels of official WotC books.

 

[Fenris-77]

On the other hand an actual new game potentially opens up revenue streams that simply cranking out more 5E books doesn't. I have no clue where you get the idea that it would make less money either. That sounds like an opinion, but it's stated like a fact, a 'fact' I find somewhat dubious.

 

[Cadence]

I lived playing the 1e Gamma World back in the early 80s, but never got into the later editions. Is 2028 the 40th anniversary of it? Something that did a update of Gamma World (with something harkening back to the original map, and notes about the various editions and artwork from them) is something I might get. The setting also feels like it might d20 better than any of the other sci-fi ones.