why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[Anthtriel]

My problem is that this idea is applied to the middle of combat. Six seconds to find a vital spot and deliver a precise blow while other people are still fighting around you doesn't sound realistic to me at all... I know that I wouldn't be able to do such a thing in real life, probably not even in 1 minute.

Maybe it's just that the condition of "helpless" should not apply so easily.

I am a sworn enemy of SoD, but I am also a sworn defender of Coup de Grace. In fact, if it's not a PC or a super important NPC, I don't even give the ability to save.

In six seconds, you would probably be able to cut the throat of an enemy that just stands there. It's harder for armored foes, but I reckon a trained fighter would be able to find a weakness fast enough. If anything, it's stupid that a sleeping human could survive having his throat cut.

Spells that render enemies helpless should either only ever affect mooks (as do sleep spells at the moment, except that they don't take player level into account for some stupid reason) or be considered almost as powerful as Save or Die. Given that Save or Die is on it's way out, I hope spells that render enemies helpless have some sort of delay and can be stopped, or require multiple castings.

 

[Li Shenron]

If anything, six seconds is too long! Don't you think a fighter, or a rogue trained to sneak attack vulnerable areas, could stab a helpless creature in the throat fairly easily?

No, not easily. Most likely you have to turn the target into a position where you reach the throat easily, position yourself and your dagger properly, and then deliver the blow.

Anyway, I don't think the game will really miss this option at all, if it wasn't spelled out by the rules, just like the game doesn't suffer too much without called shots or damage to specific areas. Some miss these rules and add them to the game, but most groups don't mind their absense.

 

[Li Shenron]

Anyway, if the DM wants to kill the characters when they sleep, the problem is not with the rules, it is with the DM.

Yes, but the original problem is with spells like Hold Person. As a DM, I am never going to kill a PC when asleep because I think it's not fun at all for them, but then how I am going to relate with enemies using those spells?

Should I allow the enemies to CdG a PC whenever he is being Held? If I make this choice default, the players are going to hate it. I think normally we blame Hold Person rather than CdG, but if it wasn't for CdG the spell would be fine.

Should I pretend that the enemies don't know or forget about CdG'ing? But most of the times CdG is the best tactic, knowing that some ally of the helpless character is surely going to free him asap. That's what the players would do against a Held enemy. So isn't that like purposefully downplay the enemies?

 

[Li Shenron]

I think there is not enough of "coup de grace"-like rules. Think about the classic "one move and I slit your throat" scenario. It's basicaly impossible with the current rules.

You are right, but CdG in fact doesn't help with that.

 

[Creamsteak]

If a player gets held, I usually see every other player and his six pets run to their aid before something gets in range to kill them off. Since it's a full round action and requires 5 ft. range, your looking at a challenge to both cast and get something into position at the same time. Now if I were really mean, I could have an enemy with the feats to make CDG a standard action, and have them delay to act right after the hold person caster, but that's reserved for enemies that are supposed to be ruthless and rediculously vicious.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Anyway, I don't think the game will really miss this option at all, if it wasn't spelled out by the rules, just like the game doesn't suffer too much without called shots or damage to specific areas. Some miss these rules and add them to the game, but most groups don't mind their absense.

I disagree here. Actually, I think the game would get along without save-or-die effects easier than without something like coup de grace, and I'm damn happy they actually instated a rule for how it works in 3E. One situation, and a very important one, where this rule would be missed would be new players. As a rule of thumb, players who are new to roleplaying games don't describe their action in "game terms" but rather in terms more close to reality. And you can bet you'll get a lot of disbelieving comments when you tell somebody who was about to "slit the throat of the guy who's standing there paralyzed and helpless" that he can't do that because the system doesn't allow for that.
If, on the other hand, the game simply goes back to "the DM rules when instant kills are appropriate", you'll have to rely on good DM calls, a direction the game has been running from for 8 years now.
If situations like held PCs with enemy in immediate coup de grace reach happen too often in your games that it might turn into a problem, I'd advise checking the encounters for that potential before it happens, and defuse it a little. Not every enemy caster will have Hold Person memorized every time, and positioning might not allow for a coup de grace all the time either. As for killing sleeping characters...if they are setting up camp and go to sleeo in "enemy territory" without setting up a regular watch, or at least a few Alarm spells, they should at least suffer some from that oversight. Killing them might be a bit harsh, but monsters will definitely take advantage if they can. Usually, more experienced players will set a watch schedule anyway, and novice players learn the folly of not doing so at very early levels, thus not being out of the game for too long.
Play the NPCs and monsters the way your players play their characters...and if you want to show them a different way to play, NPCs and monsters are your prime tools to set examples of what else is also appropriate.

 

[med stud]

If a player gets held, I usually see every other player and his six pets run to their aid before something gets in range to kill them off. Since it's a full round action and requires 5 ft. range, your looking at a challenge to both cast and get something into position at the same time. Now if I were really mean, I could have an enemy with the feats to make CDG a standard action, and have them delay to act right after the hold person caster, but that's reserved for enemies that are supposed to be ruthless and rediculously vicious.

I also want to add that a 3rd edition Hold Person is so powerful that it most often isn't necessary to CdG someone who is held. It's better to spend that round to attack opponents who can fight back and CdG the held one after everyone else is out.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I think coup de gras is fine, for the reasons already mentioned plus 1 more:
PCs usually don't die from it (I'd say as few as 5-10 percent in games I've been in), most PCs die from being at 30 HP and suddenly getting wacked by a solid blow down to -10.
Most BBEG don't die from it either (I can only recall it occuring a couple times). If a BBEG fails his save against sleep for instance then he's dead regardless of weather its from a CDG or the entire party readying actions to simulaneously beat the crud out of him the following round.

 

[Li Shenron]

One situation, and a very important one, where this rule would be missed would be new players. As a rule of thumb, players who are new to roleplaying games don't describe their action in "game terms" but rather in terms more close to reality. And you can bet you'll get a lot of disbelieving comments when you tell somebody who was about to "slit the throat of the guy who's standing there paralyzed and helpless" that he can't do that because the system doesn't allow for that.

I disagree about the disbelieving! You cannot instantly kill someone by slitting his throat.

You can insta-kill someone with an axe big blow (or even a mace), but to me the CdG's automatic critical would be enough, and a better way than the added save-or-die.

Not every enemy caster will have Hold Person memorized every time, and positioning might not allow for a coup de grace all the time either.

Sure, but sounds to me like "CdG doesn't break Hold Person, if you don't use Hold Person"

 

[med stud]

I disagree about the disbelieving! You cannot instantly kill someone by slitting his throat.

If you cut the carotis arteries the victim will have ten seconds before passing out and during those ten seconds it's not like you can do something constructive. For RPG purposes I would say that kind of slit throat would take someone out of the fight. Personally, as stated above, I think a CdG should place the victim at 0 or -1 HP and bleeding. With magical healing you have 60 seconds to save the person.