why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[Kunimatyu]

Personally, I suspect CdG will just be ported from the minis rules, where attacking a paralyzed creature is an automatic critical hit. Any weapons-user of sufficiently high level will turn that into "dead" inside of 2-3 rounds, but it avoids insta-death issues.

 

[Morrus]

But in 3e it was IMHO the source of several problem. It turned many spells into save-or-die. Sleep for example, or Hold Person, they weren't broken until the players figured out to follow them with CdG. The spells were fine themselves, but CdG broke themQUOTE]

I can't say as I agree. What's the mechanical difference betwene a helpless creature and a dead creature? From a game POV, they're both out of the fight. The CdG is just a wasted action, when you could be spending time directing attacks at a creature able to hurt you.

 

[Li Shenron]

IMHO slaying the helpless should not be too hard. The problem is low level spells should rarly allow for victims to be placed in CDG situations unless the effect is limited to low level victims. The 5% chance of being boned by a Hold Person means even high level characters can get CDG'ed by 3rd level cleric's allies.

Heck, with Hold's Save every round, it encourages, if not necessitates having an ally CDG the victim ASAP. The caster spent an action to remove the target from the fight, but they got a save. Now either an ally 5’ steps up and CDG’s them or the caster’s team risks the hold effect getting wasted in a one action for one round trade off.

I think you expressed my concerns better than I did.

If a character is helpless like for example bound in chains, then I see no problems in letting someone slit his throat. In that case, we don't even need a rule about CdG except in very rare circumstances, because if the killer wants him dead, he gets him dead (magic or special protection against such an attack notwithstanding). With the CdG rules, it doesn't matter if he wins the ST. The killer just CdG him again, and again. The rule is useless for a really bound character (once again, except in very rare circumstances where perhaps someone has a chance to stop the killer, but even in this case the CdG only changes the time allowed to save the victim, making it faster to kill).

The concern I have is in combat. Spells that turn someone into helpless have been called "save-or-screwed" because with CdG they are close to be "save-or-die". CdG cannot always be used, because the killer needs to first get close and the CdG, so most of the times it would take 2 rounds, so ok maybe the problem doesn't happen too often. Still, some spells like Hold Monsters were revised because they were too deadly, and CdG as a full-round-action makes them more deadly than they could be. This is why I wonder why not removing CdG in combat instead.

(edit: and please, let's stop the silly argument about medical realism of the CdG rule because everyone is just pushing to prove his point, but whatever rule or not rule it's never going to be realistic enough)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Fine, then how would you handle the scene where, in a battle, the group's caster casts Hold Person on one of the opponents, and the rogue announced that next round he is going to take a bit more time and then drive up his dagger up into the skull of that target? How does that work without something like coup de grace? Because stuff like that happens even in battles...and sometimes it even happens successfully.

 

[Stalker0]

I also believe that coup de grace is a LONG way from save or die.

Save or die are often at range (though not always), and its a simple 1 save 1 kill. Coup de Grace requires a helpless opponent, which requires another layer of extra effort. And then there's a second save on top of that (sure its often a ridiculous hard save, but its still there).

And of course you have to be in melee, spend a full round action (which in many cases means moving up to the creature, and then having to wait to the next round to perform a coup de grace). And don't forget that action provokes AOOs, meaning an ally could use grapple or disarm action to prevent the coup.

I rarely see coup de grace happen in combat, and they are usually a big source of drama and excitement. Unlike save or die, which is about as anticlimatic as you can get.

 

[Anthtriel]

I think you expressed my concerns better than I did.

If a character is helpless like for example bound in chains, then I see no problems in letting someone slit his throat. In that case, we don't even need a rule about CdG except in very rare circumstances, because if the killer wants him dead, he gets him dead (magic or special protection against such an attack notwithstanding). With the CdG rules, it doesn't matter if he wins the ST. The killer just CdG him again, and again. The rule is useless for a really bound character (once again, except in very rare circumstances where perhaps someone has a chance to stop the killer, but even in this case the CdG only changes the time allowed to save the victim, making it faster to kill).

The concern I have is in combat. Spells that turn someone into helpless have been called "save-or-screwed" because with CdG they are close to be "save-or-die". CdG cannot always be used, because the killer needs to first get close and the CdG, so most of the times it would take 2 rounds, so ok maybe the problem doesn't happen too often. Still, some spells like Hold Monsters were revised because they were too deadly, and CdG as a full-round-action makes them more deadly than they could be. This is why I wonder why not removing CdG in combat instead.

(edit: and please, let's stop the silly argument about medical realism of the CdG rule because everyone is just pushing to prove his point, but whatever rule or not rule it's never going to be realistic enough)

You are spot on, but I dont know why you want to see CdG killed instead of having the spells tweaked.

 

[Klaus]

Hi.

I think CdG has been mentioned already a couple of times, so i am pretty sure it's in 4e, although it could be changed.

But in 3e it was IMHO the source of several problem. It turned many spells into save-or-die. Sleep for example, or Hold Person, they weren't broken until the players figured out to follow them with CdG. The spells were fine themselves, but CdG broke them.

Why is CdG needed so much in the game? If it's for realism, the game has lots of unrealistic simplifications, why insisting on this one?
Is the purpose of Cdg to allow a realistic rendition of assassination? But in most cases an Npc can be murdered in 1 blow anyway by an assassin. A Pc of mid-high level cannot, but the scenario of having you killed in your sleep because of 1 missed save or die is once again something that many gamers hate.

I dunno about you, but my players have been slitting the throat of sleeping or held opponents since 1e. Sleep and Hold Person *are* save or die spells, when you're low-level. So is a 50-foot drop, or fighting next to a cliff.

I say CdG should stay. As other mentioned, it's a mechanical representation of the "opponent is at your mercy" scenario.

 

[Henry]

In AD&D, helpless creatures in combat could be struck for double max damage, or if out of combat, could be killed in one attack. If anything, the CdG rules are lenient.

Personally, that's one effect I will always throw into a game whether it's there or not, because not being able to easily kill a helpless person just breaks my suspension of disbelief more than almost anything.

Maybe we just need a state that is somewhere between, totally, utterly helpless and thus "coup-de-graceable", and just "helpless so that he can't do anything"?

Wouldn't "stunned" work for this purpose? Drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses Dex bonus to AC? That's pretty darned "helpless" without being a sword-dummy.

 

[Odhanan]

It has nothing to do with "realism", and everything to do with tactical options during combat. More options = More fun, potentially.

 

[Warbringer]

I disagree about the disbelieving! You cannot instantly kill someone by slitting his throat.

Yes, you can; very easily. Of course, you no doubt that it takes 2-3 second so is not instant; trust me though, it is. Unconscius and bleeding out fits the definition of CdG

You can also disable a foe and render them helpless in mid combat in about 3 seconds (quicker if they over commit).

But that's real-life, not DnD.

The issue in DnD is CdG, imho, exists because criticals are not caused by hitting an oppoent by an excessive amount in a hit, and that base AC when based on armor can never fall below a minimum value