why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[Li Shenron]

In AD&D, helpless creatures in combat could be struck for double max damage, or if out of combat, could be killed in one attack. If anything, the CdG rules are lenient.

Personally, that's one effect I will always throw into a game whether it's there or not, because not being able to easily kill a helpless person just breaks my suspension of disbelief more than almost anything.

That AD&D rule sounds actually just like what I'm proposing To remove the save-or-die because in combat is too much (the auto-crit can stay, and that's equivalent to double damage), and not needed out of combat. (IMHO of course)

 

[Li Shenron]

You are spot on, but I dont know why you want to see CdG killed instead of having the spells tweaked.

Just because it's 1 change instead of many...

 

[Anthtriel]

Just because it's 1 change instead of many...

True for 3E games, but we are in the 4E forums.

 

[Li Shenron]

True for 3E games, but we are in the 4E forums.

...and because I wish to still have low-level spells that paralyze, put to sleep etcetera, without them becoming almost-insta-kill thanks to the CdG option in combat.

 

[ogre]

Personally, as stated above, I think a CdG should place the victim at 0 or -1 HP and bleeding. With magical healing you have 60 seconds to save the person.

Great idea! -1 hit points and dying.
It fixes the instant kill on PCs, but can simply be handwaved for uniumportant NPCs as the DM sees fit, producing the same effect.
Though, with the 10% recovery chance each round, it would make a CdG 'not automatic'. Maybe a CdG has a special rule. You don't get the 10% chance to stabalize without aid from another. It would be a kill with no possibility for parole ;-)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

So how would you handle a dagger through the eye to the brain in combat then? Auto-crit? I can see how that impresses the tough fighter or the barbarian who have become victim of the Hold spell, yep.
On the other hand, it at least halves the number of stabs that are needed to bring down a higher-level opponent that way. That's progress, in a way.

 

[med stud]

So how would you handle a dagger through the eye to the brain in combat then? Auto-crit? I can see how that impresses the tough fighter or the barbarian who have become victim of the Hold spell, yep.
On the other hand, it at least halves the number of stabs that are needed to bring down a higher-level opponent that way. That's progress, in a way.

It depends on if magical healing can fix a brain or not. You can survive large injury to the brain if the injury is not placed on a bunch of places necessary for survival. What really will do you in in 99.9% of all attacks through the brain (if you don't hit a vital spot) is that you will start to bleed out and that goes fast in the brain. So we are back to ~a minute to die. Of course, if you feel like realism, if magical healing can't heal damaged brain tissue you may not want to keep playing the character if the bleeding is stilled.

 

[med stud]

Great idea! -1 hit points and dying.
It fixes the instant kill on PCs, but can simply be handwaved for uniumportant NPCs as the DM sees fit, producing the same effect.
Though, with the 10% recovery chance each round, it would make a CdG 'not automatic'. Maybe a CdG has a special rule. You don't get the 10% chance to stabalize without aid from another. It would be a kill with no possibility for parole ;-)

Thanks! Well I guess personally I would let a CdG have the possibility to stabilize and be stabilized by a Heal check. It's maybe not realistic but I think realism does more harm than good in this case.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wouldn't "stunned" work for this purpose? Drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses Dex bonus to AC? That's pretty darned "helpless" without being a sword-dummy.

Yes, might work. The condition is definitely close enough, the question is, how well does it work if a "Sleep" spell makes you stunned? (Hold Person seems to work fine with making people stunned instead of helpless)

Great idea! -1 hit points and dying.

That might work, too.

 

[Klaus]

Great idea! -1 hit points and dying.
It fixes the instant kill on PCs, but can simply be handwaved for uniumportant NPCs as the DM sees fit, producing the same effect.
Though, with the 10% recovery chance each round, it would make a CdG 'not automatic'. Maybe a CdG has a special rule. You don't get the 10% chance to stabalize without aid from another. It would be a kill with no possibility for parole ;-)

Go one step further:

The victim of a CdG that stabilizes on its own acquires a permanent injury, like loss of an eye, or something.