why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[MithrasRahl]

But you're just providing a reason why CdG is unnecessary - if you're going to die anyways while paralyzed, why have the special rule?

I'll refer back to my case. A Hold Person successfully cast. I'm wearing full plate mail, and my party has just killed 12 of 16 people in 2 rounds. The enemy, the bravest person in the world, somehow manages to find a chink in the armor in a place where one hit can kill (clearly I should demand a refund on the armor) while surrounded by the rest of my party.

This is also in a world where the is magical healing. Even if your heart has been pierced, so long as your body hasn't shut down it makes sense that magical healing would fix you.

So I'll say it again, the current CdG rules do not work.

 

[Li Shenron]

Tell me how CdG is fun when there was literally nothing I could have done to stop it ...

To top the fun of it, think that unless the CdG is changed in 4e (maybe not, since it works for anyone else than me and you ) you won't even personally roll a saving throw against it.

 

[Li Shenron]

But you're just providing a reason why CdG is unnecessary - if you're going to die anyways while paralyzed, why have the special rule?

Exactly. As I have explained earlier, I hate CdG in combat because it pisses me off, and while I wouldn't mind it out-of-combat I find that in that case I don't even need it.

 

[Sundragon2012]

That's my take, too. Realism may not be the most important thing in gaming, but IMO some grounding in reality is important for the players to be able to enjoy the game on a dramatic level.

QFT


There is no drama without versimilitude. Believability leads to immersion and immersion leads to drama and drama lends itself to memorable characters and great stories. Anything less is IMO the definition of unfun.


Sundragon

 

[Sundragon2012]

I would be lynched by my players if I didn't allow either their characters or even the villians to attempt to kill a helpless enemy. They would think I'm a cheater for not going for the kill when circumstances dictate that such actions are the only valid and reasonable route. If a character survived when all believability demands that their character should have had a longsword through the heart at the hands of the BBEG, none of my players would want to continue playing that character.

I have played a few times with DMs whose rulings were questionable IMO and I was deeply dissatisfied when my character should have died due to a trap, fall, lava, etc. and survived merely needing a brushing off by the party cleric to go on. Shattered the illusion completely and reminded me I was playing a game.....something I loathe when engaged in a RPing game.



Sundragon

 

[Lord Zardoz]

You can insta-kill someone with an axe big blow (or even a mace), but to me the CdG's automatic critical would be enough, and a better way than the added save-or-die.

The thing is, if someone is rendered unable to flee and unable to resist an attack, he is probably going to be very dead very soon anyway. The good thing about Coup De Grace is it basically cuts to the chase.

How often have you had an NPC hit by a Hold Person or even a Hideous Laughter survive a fight anyway? Unless the spell is dispelled (or in the case of Hold Person, a subsequent save is made), They are going to die except in the most unusual of circumstances.

If you made Coup de Grace Auto Crit, the target is probably still going to eat a full on Power Attack or (or Sneak attacks assuming you extend the auto-crit to include sneak attack). In 3rd Edition terms, how many such hits can most of your monsters sustain?

In most cases, Coup De Grace is used to finish a fight that is already over for all intents and purposes. It is very rare for it to be used in the middle of an active melee.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[MithrasRahl]

Once again I'll refer you to the situation that just happened.

Warblade character in Full Plate Mail gets a Hold Person cast on him. The other party tank is 10 feet from him, the rogue is 15 feet away, and the party healer is also 15 feet away.

This is not a situation where "it's not like he'd survive that long anyways with enemies power attacking him and sneak attacking him", because the party was an initiative move away from coming to his defence/the party ended up killing the remaining baddies on their next turn.

Also, to the "it's so unrealistic that the cleric could heal him" argument, think about what you're saying. It is 100% realistic in this fantasy world that a cleric can heal a dying person. If you're at -9 HP and you get a bunch of cure spells cast on you, you are suddenly at full health. If you don't like that, well, then maybe World of Darkness is a better system for you.

The point here is not that CdG is necessarily wrong as an idea, but the current system for using it just doesn't work in too many situations.

 

[VirgilCaine]

If anything, six seconds is too long! Don't you think a fighter, or a rogue trained to sneak attack vulnerable areas, could stab a helpless creature in the throat fairly easily?

Exactly.

In GURPS, you could deliver twelve hits (AoA Double, 2 per second) to a helpless creature in that period of time, which if you were using a bigger weapon (i.e. a sword or axe and not a dagger or knife), should be able to take them out of the fight even considering things like neck armor and tough, high Health opponents.

Six seconds is plenty of time to kill someone who is helpless.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Once again I'll refer you to the situation that just happened.

Warblade character in Full Plate Mail gets a Hold Person cast on him. The other party tank is 10 feet from him, the rogue is 15 feet away, and the party healer is also 15 feet away.

This is not a situation where "it's not like he'd survive that long anyways with enemies power attacking him and sneak attacking him", because the party was an initiative move away from coming to his defence/the party ended up killing the remaining baddies on their next turn.

Also, to the "it's so unrealistic that the cleric could heal him" argument, think about what you're saying. It is 100% realistic in this fantasy world that a cleric can heal a dying person. If you're at -9 HP and you get a bunch of cure spells cast on you, you are suddenly at full health. If you don't like that, well, then maybe World of Darkness is a better system for you.

The point here is not that CdG is necessarily wrong as an idea, but the current system for using it just doesn't work in too many situations.

You know, pointing to your own situation repeatedly and arguing that because you feel screwed over the rules must be faulty for a greater range of situations is not extremely convincing . From where I stand, you are arguing backwards...actually the rules work pretty nicely for the majority of coup de grace situations, and only produce a few oddball situations now and then, like in your case. And even then, you had a cleric who had prepared for greater resistance on his spellcasting followed by a typical cutthroat who has "massive opportunistic damage" written into his class abilities, which is a pretty specific combination of powers. If that hadn't been a rogue but another cleric, your warblade might have survived the coup de grace a lot easier.

 

[MithrasRahl]

I don't know if I agree with that. If, in the legal system, it worked 90% of the time, but 10% of the time there were really strange situations where people got screwed, they would change the laws in such a way that closer to 100% of the people worked with it, and the laws stayed more or less the same.

In that same vein, I am not saying we should scrap the legal system all together, I'm saying that the CdG rules should be changed in such a way that they work for all situations. Whether this means different rules for PCs/Major NPCs and random npcs, CdGing someone to 0 or -1 HP, or even "killing" the person but allowing the Con modifer in rounds to be Heal checked/cast a certain level of healing on the person, I don't know.