why paladins (smite) are powerful: action economy efficiency

[JiffyPopTart]

BUT the only way to really test it is actually playing it. I knew that the paladin was strong, but it's only after seeing it on the table that I fully understood it. The aura is *so* good.

Needs even more ****s for emphasis.

While I agree with some that the Divine Smite ability is too good (I think mostly because you can just decide to use it whenever you want without any sort of preplanning or gamble) the bonus to saves is more game breaking.

On of the initial design features of 5e was supposed to be Bounded Accuracy where numbers stay fairly static over the course of the characters 20 levels. It pretty rare to see spells/buffs that gives more than a +2 bonus in the game without either being super rare items OR taking up the super valuable concentration slot.

Then there is the Paladin Aura which can easily be (and was in my campaign) +5 to EVERY SAVE for EVERY CHARACTER that just sticks close to the paladin. +5 to any roll for any reason is a HUGE difference in 5e and making it always on, every save, stackable, and multiple characters is bonkers. 6th-7th level is also the level that a lot of other classes start getting their 1/2 damage on a failed save and no effect on a save abilities which makes the +5 even more powerful for the paladins allies.

DS

 

[Gladius Legis]

The Aura's radius is only 10 feet for the levels of the game most people play. That's not always (or really even all that often IMX) going to result in "+5 to EVERY SAVE for EVERY CHARACTER."

The Aura is basically a good secondary safe haven for party members. The primary movement objective for the party should always be to try to spread out so they can't be caught in the same enemy AoE, but sometimes in any given round it's not possible, so the Aura makes a nice relatively safe second option for safety. It should not, in any way, encourage the party to bunch up by choice.

 

[Ancalagon]

The Aura's radius is only 10 feet for the levels of the game most people play. That's not always (or really even all that often IMX) going to result in "+5 to EVERY SAVE for EVERY CHARACTER."

The Aura is basically a good secondary safe haven for party members. The primary movement objective for the party should always be to try to spread out so they can't be caught in the same enemy AoE, but sometimes in any given round it's not possible, so the Aura makes a nice relatively safe second option for safety. It should not, in any way, encourage the party to bunch up by choice.

If it's an oath of the ancients paladin, the resistance to magic damage makes bunching up a great strategy.

It's so good that my paladin player decided to increase his cha at level 8 instead of his strength.

There was one fight where the *entire* party was fireballed (walked into a fight and didn't announced clearly what side they were on, so they got fireballed) and the *worse* damage taken was 7 points of damage...

 

[Blue]

The Aura's radius is only 10 feet for the levels of the game most people play. That's not always (or really even all that often IMX) going to result in "+5 to EVERY SAVE for EVERY CHARACTER."

The Aura is basically a good secondary safe haven for party members. The primary movement objective for the party should always be to try to spread out so they can't be caught in the same enemy AoE, but sometimes in any given round it's not possible, so the Aura makes a nice relatively safe second option for safety. It should not, in any way, encourage the party to bunch up by choice.

Except when tactics and/or terrain encourages bunching up.

You can have encounters where you need to save vs. enemies but they have no AoE pretty trivially.

You can have indoor encounters where you can't spread out enough to protect against AoE so pulling in tight is the best option.

You can do a combination of spreading out and sticking close, for example a front liner cleric staying near the paladin to help keep Concentration up.

And these are all before even considering the effects of the second aura that some subclasses get at 7th, such as Oath of the Ancient's Aura of Warding as [MENTION=23]Ancalagon[/MENTION] pointed out.

There's plenty of cases to spread out, huddle up, or a hybrid of both. As well as some cases where there's no saves or AoE and you don't care.

 

[Scott Graves]

I'm not quite sure but another person who has played 5e for a while has a ranger that does the same thing. Hunters Mark... That might be it.

 

[Scott Graves]

I'm not sure, but I think you're missing something here.

I'm assuming you mean Colossus Slayer with their "extra dice of damage", but that only works once per turn, and you specifically don't get it against an unwounded target (so you wouldn't be able to use it to take someone from full hp to zero). So at 5th level, a ranger would probably do 1d8+4+1d6 for an average of 12 on an unwounded opponent, followed by 2d8+4+1d6 (average 17) assuming the first attack hit.

You might be including Sharpshooter in the above values, but in that case you're basically taking -6 to hit for +9 damage (including -1 to hit/damage from not using the 4th level ability boost on Dex). A 5th level ranger using Sharpshooter attacks at about +3 (+3 for Dex 16, +2 for archery style, +3 proficiency, -5 sharpshooter) for 1d8+13+1d6 (average 21) on an undamaged foe or 2d8+13+1d6 once per round on a hurt one (average 26), but if you do that you're probably missing at least 50% of the shots.

I am fully willing to admit I am missing something. I got drafted into running 5e Adventurer League at the gaming store I frequent. I learned most of the rules from the players who knew the system WAY better than me. I GM GUPRS and have for going on 20 years. I haven't played D&D since 3.5, and early on in that. Wound up moving to pathfinder and did that for a few months but went back to GURPS.

Here's how he is doing it as far as I can see. Longbow +1, on low AC creatures uses sharp shooter, has the colossus slayer thing going on, Always uses Hunters Mark. Doesn't cast any other spells other than the occasional arrow of thorns if he gets a group of them. He holds his shot until the Monk slaps one, then he shoots that one. Kaboom! Like I say, I think 23 or so is average damage... Maybe. I tend to get eight to then players because the other GM can't get more than 2-3 of his regular group to show up so they join us. Makes it hard to keep track of exactly what he's doing. However another group at the store has a ranger that does exactly the same thing routinely.

 

[Maxperson]

If it's an oath of the ancients paladin, the resistance to magic damage makes bunching up a great strategy.

It's so good that my paladin player decided to increase his cha at level 8 instead of his strength.

There was one fight where the *entire* party was fireballed (walked into a fight and didn't announced clearly what side they were on, so they got fireballed) and the *worse* damage taken was 7 points of damage...

It depends on the party make-up. In the game I'm playing in my paladin is oath of the ancients. However, we have a bard that does a bunch of battlefield sneaking and tricks, so he tends to be farther than 10 feet away from me. The low hit point wizard also doesn't want to be anywhere near me in combat, since I'm a tank and move right into the thick of the enemy. The only member of the party who reliably gets my auras is the party fighter who is usually slugging it out next to me.

 

[Mistwell]

Congratulations, you fail at math.

I got your "point," the problem is that it isn't much of a point.

You really should know what you're even talking about before commenting.

Why be rude Gladius?

 

[Umbran]

Congratulations, you fail at math.

You really should know what you're even talking about before commenting.

Please dial back the person-targeted hostility and sarcasm several notches, please and thank you. Address the logic and position of the post, not the person of the poster.

 

[Ancalagon]

Interestingly, my paladin of the ancient player is jumping ship to a hexblade (not multi-classing, changing character entirely!)

The cleric is complaining about how now they are going to have to tank and memorize healing spells ha!