why paladins (smite) are powerful: action economy efficiency

[5ekyu]

Moon Druid I can certainly see an argument for, but Wizard? Not so much. They're great, don't get me wrong, but they're also ridiculously fragile compared to the other casting classes and lack healing utility. But on top of that, their most glaring weakness is their "single-resource dependency".

Wizards rely on spells for defense, offense, and utility—both in and out of combat, and they're also much more reliant on their higher level spell slots than Clerics or Druids or even Bards.

However, I also Paladin vs. Moon Druid is a far more apt comparison than Paladin vs. Wizard, because the former are both "Support Bruisers/Tanks", while the latter only have Spellcasting in common (using the loosest definition of "in common").

I would argue a bit about moon druid because it depends significantly on level **and** on the availability of "beasts known".

 

[Blue]

So we're up yo 12.2% and...

We're up to 12.2% assuming three hit against the paladin. Which means probably at least 6 attacks. And that's also assuming foes with high ACs so the "forum standard' of 65% chance to hit for weapon-focused characters is lowered to 50%.

With the least bit of situational awareness, if you are the focus of a large number of attacks by high AC opponents and a 1/8th chance to lose your Concentration is too high then don't do a Smite spell that particular round.

Really, you're trying to find these tiny corner cases and use that as a justification for all cases.

 

[5ekyu]

We're up to 12.2% assuming three hit against the paladin. Which means probably at least 6 attacks. And that's also assuming foes with high ACs so the "forum standard' of 65% chance to hit for weapon-focused characters is lowered to 50%.

With the least bit of situational awareness, if you are the focus of a large number of attacks by high AC opponents and a 1/8th chance to lose your Concentration is too high then don't do a Smite spell that particular round.

Really, you're trying to find these tiny corner cases and use that as a justification for all cases.

Actually I did not think the cases was bring made for all cases, just that his own history had led him to this choice after he had been bitten by it a few times.

My halfling bardxstarted out wanting to avoid getting more than one concentration sprll, but changed outlook as play proceeded. The spell selections and character now are vastly different than I had expected, because "they" are making choices in game, in context, not "me" following a build checklist.

 

[Maxperson]

Because that spell might result in an enemy being frightened and wasting actions to try to shake off said frightned condition at disadvantage, so probably being frightened and thus crippled the entire fight? That can be worth a whole lot more than just a few points more damage with the same 1st-level spell slot.

Crippled the entire fight? You have 2 second level spells and the creature gets a save every round to break the effect, IF it fails in the first place. Given the number of encounters the game expects in an adventuring day, you aren't going to have that spell during most fights. And there's a 1 in 10 or better chance of losing that spell before you can use it.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Crippled the entire fight? You have 2 second level spells and the creature gets a save every round to break the effect, IF it fails in the first place. Given the number of encounters the game expects in an adventuring day, you aren't going to have that spell during most fights. And there's a 1 in 10 or better chance of losing that spell before you can use it.

You really should know what you're even talking about before commenting.

The spell I'm referring to, of course, is Wrathful Smite, which is a 1st-level spell, not a 2nd-level spell. You have 4 of those 1st-level slots when you're Lv. 6. You might also want to read over the description again. It's only one save at the beginning. If the enemy fails the save, subsequent attempts to break free from frightening require an ability check. Please look up how that is, in fact, different from a save, and also look up what the frightened condition does to ability checks. Also note that said ability check uses up the enemy's action, and how that is beneficial even if the enemy should succeed at the check.

 

[Maxperson]

The spell I'm referring to, of course, is Wrathful Smite, which is a 1st-level spell, not a 2nd-level spell. You have 4 of those 1st-level slots when you're Lv. 6. You might also want to read over the description again. It's only one save at the beginning. If the enemy fails the save, subsequent attempts to break free from frightening require an ability check. Please look up how that is, in fact, different from a save, and also look up what the frightened condition does to ability checks. Also note that said ability check uses up the enemy's action, and how that is beneficial even if the enemy should succeed at the check.

You're right. I misread that last night. My bad. Long and tiring day at Disneyland for my birthday. Still doesn't change the fact that you run through slots quickly. I'll also say that I didn't realize that it was an ability check, since the first three times I used it the creature saved so I never had to go any further.

 

[Ancalagon]

Hello guys, i'm begginer in this game with my friends. Can someone tell me the best strategic to win?

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

So a few pieces of advice.

1: Start a new thread, don't post at the end of this one. Your question is broader, and deserve its own thread.

2: Remember that D&D is not a game about "winning", it's a game about having fun!

 

[Ancalagon]

I would argue a bit about moon druid because it depends significantly on level **and** on the availability of "beasts known".

Furthermore, the problem with the moon druid is that there is no real "synergy" between their ability to become a fierce animal and fight, and their ability to cast.

A good "gish" (like the paladin) uses her magic to enhance her fighting (... because you can't really enhance your magic with a sword). A druid is a full caster. At higher level, he's better off raining destructive/control spells on the foes, and the ability to turn into a polar bear isn't helping that one bit.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Furthermore, the problem with the moon druid is that there is no real "synergy" between their ability to become a fierce animal and fight, and their ability to cast.

A good "gish" (like the paladin) uses her magic to enhance her fighting (... because you can't really enhance your magic with a sword). A druid is a full caster. At higher level, he's better off raining destructive/control spells on the foes, and the ability to turn into a polar bear isn't helping that one bit.

Yeah, it’s a case of nerfing soemthing because it was broken in previous editions, which is a bummer.

 

[5ekyu]

Furthermore, the problem with the moon druid is that there is no real "synergy" between their ability to become a fierce animal and fight, and their ability to cast.

A good "gish" (like the paladin) uses her magic to enhance her fighting (... because you can't really enhance your magic with a sword). A druid is a full caster. At higher level, he's better off raining destructive/control spells on the foes, and the ability to turn into a polar bear isn't helping that one bit.

Good point.

Now if moon druid instead of needin to seek dinos to study got to burn spell slots for more animal strikes goodness "bite smites" or "clawing maulings" in addition to their slots for healing, you could get rid of their higher and higher beast giants forms and let them be better versiins of the regular beasts without a lot of GM oversight and campaign setting stuff.