Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Rystil Arden]

A wizard of 12th level will lose to a Psion of 12th level 75-80% of the and with Temporal Acceleration will win more often. This means that the Wizard is under powered compared to the Psion or the Psion is over powered. My suggestions pull the Psion back to a 55-70% win ratio.

Uh, no they don't. Your suggestions don't really fix any of the beefs that any of the psi-haters have with psionics. All they do is force psions to waste higher-level powers known for their blast spells because you've put in place an artificial cap on augmentation. I'm really not sure you understand exactly what you're doing: Say I'm a 10th-level Psion with Energy Bolt and Energy Ray. By your system, Energy Ray is capped at 5, but I can still manifest a 10d6 damage Energy Bolt for 10 PP and hit lots of enemies. Eliminating your limit, I can still manifest the same Energy Bolt, or I could manifest a 10d6 energy ray for the same price of 10 PP and hit one enemy. You haven't really weakened the Psion at all--you've just forced Kineticists to waste more powers known.

 

[Drowbane]

In my experience, Psionics is as balanced as Sorcery.

Psions don't ever feel like they have enough Power Points.

-- N

True that! My poor Warforged Psion (shaper) is always running out of Power Points before the end of a session. :/

I think I'd be happier with D&D magic if it worked more like Psionics. Spellpoints, spells scaling with augmentation rather than autoscaling, etc.

 

[Drowbane]

...If you were 10th level casting a fireball, it would only do 5 dice unless you paid the cost again to do 10 dice. I love the system that allows me on the fly to do what I'm doing but may DM's see this as abusive and won't allow it in. I'm suggesting something in the middle ground that would allow more of these characters in gameplay...

Ya do realize that you can't Augment a power cost higher than your Manifester level, right? A 5th level Psion can deal 1-5d6 with Energy Ray. The cost for the 5d6 ER is the equivent of just using a 3rd level power. Compare this to a 5th level Wizard casting a fireball. Sure the Psion can do it alot more often, but the Wizard is hitting multiple targets. The psionic equivilent is a 4th level power.

Edit: Oh, and in case nobody else has said it yet...

Welcome to ENworld!

 

[wildstarsreach]

Uh, no they don't. Your suggestions don't really fix any of the beefs that any of the psi-haters have with psionics. All they do is force psions to waste higher-level powers known for their blast spells because you've put in place an artificial cap on augmentation. I'm really not sure you understand exactly what you're doing: Say I'm a 10th-level Psion with Energy Bolt and Energy Ray. By your system, Energy Ray is capped at 5, but I can still manifest a 10d6 damage Energy Bolt for 10 PP and hit lots of enemies. Eliminating your limit, I can still manifest the same Energy Bolt, or I could manifest a 10d6 energy ray for the same price of 10 PP and hit one enemy. You haven't really weakened the Psion at all--you've just forced Kineticists to waste more powers known.

Again, this assumption is wrong. Energy bolt is a 3rd level area affect attack. Yes, you do 10d6 of fire which is +1 per die and the enemies reflex save for 1/2 damage. Energy ray if it hits, does not reduce. Twin power feat would allow you for 11 PP to do 2 5d6 rays of fire that are +1 per die. If both hit, that would be 45 points of damage average. The same for the single bolt would be 45 points on an average for 10 PP if they fail their save. The average for a bolt attack by a Wizard would be 35 points. Not only are psionics better, but their averages are superior to Wizards and Sorcerers.

To ask you, why is there an artificial cap on Arcane and Divine spellcasters. It's called game balance. Why shouldn't Psionic characters have to live by the same rules. Why is it when Psions manifest fire and cold it's at +1 point per die, and sonic is at -1 per d6 and electricity is +2 to the DC to save. Spellcasters get none of these benefits, why are Psionic characters getting this freebee. My suggestions attempt to bandaid what I have found is an anti-psionic camp through most of the role-players that I in almost 30 years of gaming find. I understand the system and abuse it perfectly since the DM has let me go by the rules as written. I see a failing with the system in which a set of classes that a lot of people want to play and a lot of DM's ban. Get out of the box and look at what point you would be unwilling to play these classes.

 

[wildstarsreach]

True that! My poor Warforged Psion (shaper) is always running out of Power Points before the end of a session. :/

I think I'd be happier with D&D magic if it worked more like Psionics. Spellpoints, spells scaling with augmentation rather than autoscaling, etc.

I'll tell you, I've never run out of points since around 10th level. But being a multiclassed wizard/psion help.

 

[Rystil Arden]

My suggestions attempt to bandaid what I have found is an anti-psionic camp through most of the role-players that I in almost 30 years of gaming find. I understand the system and abuse it perfectly since the DM has let me go by the rules as written. I see a failing with the system in which a set of classes that a lot of people want to play and a lot of DM's ban. Get out of the box and look at what point you would be unwilling to play these classes.

You aren't fixing what the anti-psionics folks find to be the problem, though. It would be like taking away Survival and Spot as class skills of the Barbarian to appease someone who said "Barbarians are too strong at fighting".

Your example of Twin Power is actually a bad choice on the part of the Psion (sheer augmentation beats out Twin Power at level 11, since 11d6 > 2 5d6s)

Again, this assumption is wrong.

Actually, it isn't. You say it's not and then misdirect away to a different issue without explaining this statement. It proves, most likely, that you either don't understand or are choosing to ignore the opportunity cost inherent in the power point system and are too caught up on 'but it's a 1st level power that can do high damage' to see that it doesn't matter if it's a 1st level power or a 9th level power if it costs the same number of PP to manifest.

There are many ways to attempt to fix psionics to appease the psi-haters. Limiting the energy attacks to one energy as you suggest is one of them. Creating those arbitrary caps is not. It does not weaken Psions at all except insomuch as the blasters are forced to spend more powers known on attack powers.

 

[Drowbane]

I'll tell you, I've never run out of points since around 10th level. But being a multiclassed wizard/psion help.

Possibly doesn't help that I'm a gestalt Fighter | Psion... I burn alot of PsPs just prepping for combat. (Vigor, Share Pain x2, Force Screen - if I have time, an Astral Construct or two)

 

[Someone]

Wildstarsreach, I don´t think you are getting the rationale behing capping for spellcasters and not capping for psionics.

Spellcasting capping makes sense because no matter how high level the spellcaster becomes, the resources invested in casting the spell remains static. A Magic Missile spell is always prepared in a 1st level slot, no matter if the wizard is level 1 or 20. If he´s level 1, he spends a 1st level slot and deals 1d4+1. If he´s level 20 and without capping, casts magic missile, he´d do 10d4+10. Resources spent remain constant, but benefit provided augments freely: the spell becomes better with time.

With psionic powers, on the other hand, if you spend 1 pp in, say, energy ray, you always get 1d6 damage (or 1d6+1, or 1d6-1). It doesn´t matter if you are level 1 or 20, you spend 1 pp and get 1 die. While the cost quickly becomes trivial, you always get the same effect, no matter what. If you want to improve the effect, you have to pump PP in it; say you spend 10 extra power points to deal 11d6.

Now is when you say "That´s broken! a 1st level power shouldn´t do so much damage!" But the power remains a 1st level power on paper. You´re not spending 1 pp any more, you´re spending 11. With 11 pp you´d be manifesting otherwise a 6th level power: instead of energy ray, he´d be using Disintegrate, or an augmented Energy Current or whatever, with probably greater effect and the same cost.

With spells that doesn´t happen. A 10 dice magic missile will be vastly inferior to a 9th level spell, but the resources invested on it will continue to be a meager 1st level slot. A 1st level slot may become too good if allowed to freely scale too much; that´s why there are caps on them. Maybe 10 dice are too much, but how about 5 dice?

Now suppose you cap psionic powers. At 11th level, instead of being manifesting Energy Ray and Disintegrate, the psion is manifesting only Disintegrate (because energy ray capped long ago and is no longer useful). You´ve not made the psion less potent: you made him a one trick pony, stuck with low level powers he´ll never use. You didn´t solve the supposed problem with psions (that they can manifest many high level powers) and alienated why many like about psionics (that they are flexible). Summarizing: you made psionics worse.

 

[frankthedm]

I disagree with this one, though. (And an AC of 30 isnt' that great at 17th-level anyway.) There are better Mage Armor spells. I think Mage Armor should have had scaling (or higher level versions should have been included) in the core rules. So I blame Mage Armor for this one.

Thats why there are bracers of armor in the core rules.

I'd say the greater mage armor spell is broken, but on the other hand it really useful against PCs with a monster caster with non associated spellcaster levels. Slap practiced spellcaster on the critter and the whole dungeon can have a +6 armor bonus when the PCs come calling.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Wildstarsreach, I don´t think you are getting the rationale behing capping for spellcasters and not capping for psionics.

Spellcasting capping makes sense because no matter how high level the spellcaster becomes, the resources invested in casting the spell remains static. A Magic Missile spell is always prepared in a 1st level slot, no matter if the wizard is level 1 or 20. If he´s level 1, he spends a 1st level slot and deals 1d4+1. If he´s level 20 and without capping, casts magic missile, he´d do 10d4+10. Resources spent remain constant, but benefit provided augments freely: the spell becomes better with time.

With psionic powers, on the other hand, if you spend 1 pp in, say, energy ray, you always get 1d6 damage (or 1d6+1, or 1d6-1). It doesn´t matter if you are level 1 or 20, you spend 1 pp and get 1 die. While the cost quickly becomes trivial, you always get the same effect, no matter what. If you want to improve the effect, you have to pump PP in it; say you spend 10 extra power points to deal 11d6.

Now is when you say "That´s broken! a 1st level power shouldn´t do so much damage!" But the power remains a 1st level power on paper. You´re not spending 1 pp any more, you´re spending 11. With 11 pp you´d be manifesting otherwise a 6th level power: instead of energy ray, he´d be using Disintegrate, or an augmented Energy Current or whatever, with probably greater effect and the same cost.

With spells that doesn´t happen. A 10 dice magic missile will be vastly inferior to a 9th level spell, but the resources invested on it will continue to be a meager 1st level slot. A 1st level slot may become too good if allowed to freely scale too much; that´s why there are caps on them. Maybe 10 dice are too much, but how about 5 dice?

Now suppose you cap psionic powers. At 11th level, instead of being manifesting Energy Ray and Disintegrate, the psion is manifesting only Disintegrate (because energy ray capped long ago and is no longer useful). You´ve not made the psion less potent: you made him a one trick pony, stuck with low level powers he´ll never use. You didn´t solve the supposed problem with psions (that they can manifest many high level powers) and alienated why many like about psionics (that they are flexible). Summarizing: you made psionics worse.

Again, you say I don't understand. I do understand how it works and enjoy using it only to the point that my group also enjoys playing. My character shouldn't always be the center spotlight, our group is a bunch of heroes that have banded together to stop the darkness. My goal is not to keep the status quo but to start a discussion on what to do to fix the situation. If you state a problem, you should at least to to state a possible solution. This may not be what is needed to fix the situation but I'm open to other ideas that will correct the current problem. "DM's hating psionics."

The problem is that the powers a character have are always equal to the newest one that the character just earned. This is against the way that DND has been based on. You begin small and end big. Your beginning stuff while more powerful than when you started your is useful, it isn't equal to the stuff that you recently aquired.

If you don't like my suggestions, then give me alternatives as that will help solve the problem. You attack my suggestions without looking at what my goal is. Thanks in advance.