Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it
- Thread starter wildstarsreach
- Start date
FireLance
Legend
The way I see it, the problem with psionics is that a psion can potentially create more higher-level effects per day than a sorcerer. A sorcerer gets six 9th-level spell slots, six 8th-level spell slots, and six 7th-level spell slots at 20th level, before adding bonus slots for high Charisma. A 20th-level psion who augments all his powers to 20 PP can manifest seventeen such powers, all of which are effectively equivalent to 9th-level spells, from his base PP alone.
One way I thought of to balance this was to have some sort of recent manifesting effect that further limited the amount of PP a psionic character can spend on his powers. Say, each power reduces the amount that could be spent on subsequent powers by 2. If a psionic character goes 1 round without spending PP, this cap goes up by 1, to his normal limit. So, in the first round of combat, a 20th-level psion could spend 20 PP on a power. In the second round, he can only spend 18 PP. If he does not manifest any powers on the third round, he could spend 19 PP to manifest a power in the fourth. This will require more bookkeeping for the player running the psionic character, but makes it less likely that he will dominate combat, especially in the later rounds.
One way I thought of to balance this was to have some sort of recent manifesting effect that further limited the amount of PP a psionic character can spend on his powers. Say, each power reduces the amount that could be spent on subsequent powers by 2. If a psionic character goes 1 round without spending PP, this cap goes up by 1, to his normal limit. So, in the first round of combat, a 20th-level psion could spend 20 PP on a power. In the second round, he can only spend 18 PP. If he does not manifest any powers on the third round, he could spend 19 PP to manifest a power in the fourth. This will require more bookkeeping for the player running the psionic character, but makes it less likely that he will dominate combat, especially in the later rounds.
Suldarr'essalar
First Post
1. You're reffering to the maximal damage a spell can do, right (empowered damage is not maximised)?
2. Beside the fact that that metapsionic feats also require a manifester to expend psionic focus, so without psionic meditation feat, you can use metapsionic feats once every two rounds. And of course you can't use two metapsionic feats (since you cannot be twice psionicly focused at the same time) without additional 2 feats! And if having those 3 feats you can do it 1 every 2 rounds (without psionic meditation 1 every 3 rounds).
3. Energy burst deals damage to all creatures within 40ft away from manifester. You need to get all those creatures near you before manifesting energy burst.
1. Well, a maximised disintegrate cast by 20th level caster deals 240 points of damage.
A manifester can manifest maximised disintegrate dealing 192 points of damage (using 20pp equivalent of 10.5 spell slot), or manifest a standard 40d6 disintegrate using the same number of power points.
2. A manifester in order to use 40d6 disintegrate must use 20pp (10.5 spell slot), while a wizard uses 6th level spell slot to do the same amount of damage.
3. After using all power points on those disintegrates psion can do nothing, while wizards 1st level spells (5d4+5 magic missiles) are still useful (and he didn't use them!).
Too bad it's subject to Damage Reduction.
Another thing, you must pay 20pp to get 20d6 damage of it. Hence you need to use higher level spell slot to get more damage out of 1st level power. Spells are caped because it would be highly unbalanced to let first level spell deal 10d4+10 points of damage (uncaped magic missile cast by 19th level wizard/sorcerer).
Augmentation is nothing more than an equivalent of a higher level spell slot. And shield stops magic missiles!
Check out 3rd level Greater Magic Armor from Spell Compedium and tell me how many power points must a manifester use to get that bonus?
Beside the fact that it doesn't deal any damage on a succesful save, it's close range and it's mind affecting, so at higher levels there are lots of creatures immune to this power.
To get the power of second level spell, vigor must be augmented only by 2pp. That gives 15hp compared to d10+1/level. Comperable? Yes!
Broken? No!
Good power, but mind affecting with close range. Spellcasters have high will saves, so it's not as effective as it seems.
1d6/2 levels? Sometimes it's worth it, but mostly it's beter to use 1d6/level powers
As with crystal shard, it's subject to DR.
Why the limitation? Seriously, I don't get it. If I have to pay 15pp on 1st level energy ray to get 15d6 points of damage its just as if I'd use 8th level power, except that augmented energy ray is still treated as 1st level power so it's stopped by every glob (i.e. lesser glob of invulnerability).
If you happen to notice it has DC of a 1st level power, it's mind affecting and close range.
So true
So twin energy ray if hits deals 10d6+10 to one target (11pp). You have to expend psionic focus. An equivalent of 11pp is a 6th level spell... hmm... chain lightning: 11d6 to one target and 5d6 to 11 secondary targets.
If you'd understand, you wouldn't suggest capping powers
And as for being in the spotlight, try more encounters durring one day.
Psions begin small (d6 - d10 damage), and and big (40d6, bend reality, and stuff like that).
True, but he can do 17*40d6 (disintegrate) = 680d6
Sorcerer can do: 6* 5d8 [lesser orb of X] + 6* 5d6 [Snilloc's Snowball Swaarm] + 6* 10d6 [fireball] + 6 * 15d6 [orb of X] + 6*15d6 [cone of cold] + 6* 40d6 [disintegrate] + 6* 20d6 [delayed fireball] + 6* 60d6 [empowered disintegrate] + 6* 24d6 [meteor swarm] = 1134d6 + 30d8 if I'm not mistaken.
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@wildstarsreach: Someone did a very good job of pointing out to you just why psionic powers don't need effect caps and why adding those caps would not help the system any. I'd also like to point out that you keep comparing Psion damage dealing ability to that of a Wizard, but neglect to mention that arcane damage dealing is worth about as much as a bard in a hack and slash campaign. By making damage dealing 'overpowered' the psion simply made it a viable tactic for another 5 levels or so (but it's still pretty meh level 15+).
Now for some helpful suggestions. If you find a psionic character is overshadowing everyone else the first thing you should do is figure out where exactly the problem is. Speak with the other players and try to find out exactly how they feel overshadowed. Perhaps the other players don't mind that they aren't top dog in every encounter, but are instead unhappy because the DM doesn't highlight their strengths and aptitudes.
If you've got a cleric/druid in the party and they're being outdone by a psion then it's a simple fact that the cleric/druid just isn't trying. If the psion was built very well with combat in mind but the rest of the party made more 'natural' characters then it's only logical that the well built class will shine in it's area of expertise. If the other players wanted a combat able character, but are simply built poorly, then work with the DM to reforge the character into something with more heft. On the flipside, it may be easier to gimpify the psionic character to the average level of the party (e.g. swapping Overchannel for Toughness).
Another common occurrence is that your DM isn't throwing the 'default' 4 encounters per rest cycle at the players. This is perfectly understandable, but the players may be metagaming an advantage out of it. All casters are able to abuse this situation, but psions often do it best. So soft-cap the psion to 20% of his PP per encounter (with the DM giving him subtle hints when it's boss time and he can throw around another 10% or so). This assumes that the CR of the encounter is the same as the party's level. If your fights are on average tougher, give the psion an extra 10% for every CR the encounter is above the level of the party. This forces the player to ration his PP and helps prevent 'nova' problems.
Possibly the worst problem you may have is that your DM simply isn't producing challenging encounters. If he only throws a single monster at you (never ever ever ever ever ever a good idea) then ask him to put more minions in encounters. If he continually throws the same type of monster at you that's not good either. You eventually learn their weaknesses and exploit them without realizing it. And maybe the monsters he's constantly throwing at you are simply weak to whatever effect you're using. If all the enemies have high AC, nice DR, good fort/will saves, but only have so-so HP, poor ref saves, and no energy resistance then a blaster type is going to shine bright. A lack of variety may be your problem.
Your DM may also just be playing stupid monsters who's only ambition is to fling themselves at the nearest pointy object. If you are high enough in levels to have a PrC, then you're powerful enough to have a small reputation. Intelligent enemies, especially casters, should take advantage of that and prepare accordingly. If energy damage is your big thing then the enemies could have Globes of Invulnerability. And never underestimate the power of fighting fire with fire. Ever thought of giving the villain a Psionic Tattoo of Energy Adaptation? Players who metagame should be shot with a hammer. DM's who don't metagame should be shot with a hammer twice.
Now for some helpful suggestions. If you find a psionic character is overshadowing everyone else the first thing you should do is figure out where exactly the problem is. Speak with the other players and try to find out exactly how they feel overshadowed. Perhaps the other players don't mind that they aren't top dog in every encounter, but are instead unhappy because the DM doesn't highlight their strengths and aptitudes.
If you've got a cleric/druid in the party and they're being outdone by a psion then it's a simple fact that the cleric/druid just isn't trying. If the psion was built very well with combat in mind but the rest of the party made more 'natural' characters then it's only logical that the well built class will shine in it's area of expertise. If the other players wanted a combat able character, but are simply built poorly, then work with the DM to reforge the character into something with more heft. On the flipside, it may be easier to gimpify the psionic character to the average level of the party (e.g. swapping Overchannel for Toughness).
Another common occurrence is that your DM isn't throwing the 'default' 4 encounters per rest cycle at the players. This is perfectly understandable, but the players may be metagaming an advantage out of it. All casters are able to abuse this situation, but psions often do it best. So soft-cap the psion to 20% of his PP per encounter (with the DM giving him subtle hints when it's boss time and he can throw around another 10% or so). This assumes that the CR of the encounter is the same as the party's level. If your fights are on average tougher, give the psion an extra 10% for every CR the encounter is above the level of the party. This forces the player to ration his PP and helps prevent 'nova' problems.
Possibly the worst problem you may have is that your DM simply isn't producing challenging encounters. If he only throws a single monster at you (never ever ever ever ever ever a good idea) then ask him to put more minions in encounters. If he continually throws the same type of monster at you that's not good either. You eventually learn their weaknesses and exploit them without realizing it. And maybe the monsters he's constantly throwing at you are simply weak to whatever effect you're using. If all the enemies have high AC, nice DR, good fort/will saves, but only have so-so HP, poor ref saves, and no energy resistance then a blaster type is going to shine bright. A lack of variety may be your problem.
Your DM may also just be playing stupid monsters who's only ambition is to fling themselves at the nearest pointy object. If you are high enough in levels to have a PrC, then you're powerful enough to have a small reputation. Intelligent enemies, especially casters, should take advantage of that and prepare accordingly. If energy damage is your big thing then the enemies could have Globes of Invulnerability. And never underestimate the power of fighting fire with fire. Ever thought of giving the villain a Psionic Tattoo of Energy Adaptation? Players who metagame should be shot with a hammer. DM's who don't metagame should be shot with a hammer twice.
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Someone
Adventurer
Where did I say that you don´t understand all psionics? I said that you didn´t understand an aspect of it: how an augmented 1st level power should not be compared to a 1st level spell anymore, but to higher level powers. Several other posters also did that, and reading your answers I had clear that you didn´t get the concept at all. Hence my post.
Good for you. Now that you contributed with your anecdotal evidence, let me do the same with mine. In the campaing I DM a couple years ago the players once almost complained that "the rogue did everything", because he has the wits to infiltrate a mansion and spy the bad guys. The group also included a ftr/clr that could squish the halfling in combat like a bug, and a wizard loaded with utility spells. The point was that the rogue´s player was effective and intelligent, not that the rogue class is overpowered.
In another campaing I play a mystic theurge who rarely prepares anything else than utility, buff and divination spells, with some summon monster spell for combat: an almost pure support character. But somehow, he´s many times more than his share of spotlight and defeated the most recent BBEG almost by himself* (a lich) with a combo of Silence and Telekinesis spell. Yet the majority here thinks that mystic theurges are underpowered. Maybe it´s the same with your character, I don´t know.
*Actually, the party´s monk helped, using the poor mute and pinned lich as a punching bag. But you get the point.
I concede that for Astral construct and Energy Missile this is true. But high level powers are as a rule more powerful than augmented low level powers.
I suggest that to find a good solution, one must first identify the problem. As you noticed, I don´t think the problem isn´t on unlimited scaling.
Thanee
First Post
The problem is, that whatever inherent balance the PP system has totally falls apart at higher levels, because it grows in too many dimensions at once. One of the biggest issues is what FireLance has mentioned above.
It's an inherent flaw of the system's foundation.
The best idea I have to solve this problem is to give psionic-users two PP totals, each equal to half their regular PP total, one of which can only be used to pay for the base cost of powers, while the other can only be used for augmentation.
Then all powers with augmentation would need to be evaluated and many of them changed in some subtle way, so that there are almost no low level powers anymore, which have the full effect of high level powers with augmentation (i.e. Astral Construct is one of those that do, while Energy Ray is a power that does not). This is alright to some degree, but not to the extent it has currently.
In addition, some powers should be drastically reduced in flexibility. Especially the whole energy line comes to mind, which need to be split up into four individual powers each with a definite energy type.
And scaling needs to be removed from all powers (there are a few, which do scale without the need for augmentation; the most prominent example is Dispel Psionics, Metamorphosis is another).
Then the Psion class itself needs to be altered in a way, that it gains new power levels on even levels starting at 4th, as normal for spontaneous casters as well.
Bye
Thanee
It's an inherent flaw of the system's foundation.
The best idea I have to solve this problem is to give psionic-users two PP totals, each equal to half their regular PP total, one of which can only be used to pay for the base cost of powers, while the other can only be used for augmentation.
Then all powers with augmentation would need to be evaluated and many of them changed in some subtle way, so that there are almost no low level powers anymore, which have the full effect of high level powers with augmentation (i.e. Astral Construct is one of those that do, while Energy Ray is a power that does not). This is alright to some degree, but not to the extent it has currently.
In addition, some powers should be drastically reduced in flexibility. Especially the whole energy line comes to mind, which need to be split up into four individual powers each with a definite energy type.
And scaling needs to be removed from all powers (there are a few, which do scale without the need for augmentation; the most prominent example is Dispel Psionics, Metamorphosis is another).
Then the Psion class itself needs to be altered in a way, that it gains new power levels on even levels starting at 4th, as normal for spontaneous casters as well.
Bye
Thanee
