D&D 5E Why Should I Allow Feats

[Dausuul]

I'm not clear on exactly what the problem is here.

I mean, if the problem is just that certain feat combos are overpowered, there's an easy answer to that: Tone 'em down! By my calculations, it seems like all you need to do is cut down Sharpshooter to -5/+5 instead of -5/+10, maybe trim Bless to a flat +2 instead of +1d4, and make it clear that Two-Weapon Fighting Style cannot be used with ranged weapons*. That brings dual hand crossbows in line with a single longbow (remember that you're paying an extra feat for the dual crossbows, so they should be somewhat better DPR), and makes Sharpshooter good but not overwhelming. I'd allow the players to reconsider their builds since you're changing the rules mid-game.

Alternatively, pump up the bad guys. Give everything double hit points, double or triple the number of monsters, whatever. Or pump up the bad guys and tweak the feats.

If the problem is you just don't like running a game at high levels, well, then, be up front about that. Don't blame the feats. Frankly, of all the problems that can crop up at high levels, massive damage output seems like the easiest to fix.

And if the problem is you don't like running a game for gearhead players who enjoy cranking up their PCs' damage output to the max, well, then, I'd say you're DMing for the wrong group. If it were just one player, you could ask that player to tone it down, but it sounds like it's all of them. Restarting at 1st level and banning feats won't fix anything. Either figure out how to be happy DMing for a group of twinked-out combat monsters, or step out from behind the DM screen and let someone else take a crack at it.

[SIZE=-2]*As I read the rules, this is already RAW. However, it relies on a fairly technical point that's subject to debate, so you might as well just spell it out.[/SIZE]

 

[Celebrim]

An optimized party in every edition has sometime after 10th level started breaking the game. First edition was no different, especially after Unearthed Arcana came along and gave the players more ways to break the game.

It sounds to me like you've got the following problems:

a) A few feats are OP.
b) The most OP feats are the ones that allow ranged combat, and ranged attackers have a tactical answer to pretty much everything in just turreting and unleashing the pain. Your party has correctly hit on the 'all ranged attacker' strategy that is optimal whenever ranged attackers can compete with anything else in damage.
c) You are over 10th level, and over 10th level has always been problematic with a D20 resolution system.
d) You got to 10th level too quickly. The game was just released this year. Are you playing 16 hours a week or something? Slow down. Reduce the XP awards. There is no need to rush up to bigger numbers. I don't expect my current campaign to hit 10th level before its 6th year of play.
e) If 5e is anything like 1e, there aren't really good guidelines for how to challenge players above 10th level. In general, straight up fights with monsters stop being challenging. There are only so many Hill Giants you can have in the fight before it gets boring. You'll need to add terrain, environmental hazards, unusual situations, and 'fog of war' to keep high level PC's on their toes.

None of that is insurmountable.

a) Nerf the OP feats, particularly the ranged combat ones. Since they involve large numbers, this should be easy. Start off with -5/+5, though frankly even that seems likely to be too good. Why that wasn't realized in play testing I don't know. In general, ranged combat has to be strictly inferior in terms of damage production to melee combat, or else it is strictly superior.
b) Half the XP awards. Stay in the sweet spot as long as possible.
c) Gain some system mastery before getting into high level play, and implement some lessons learned in how you create set piece encounters. Don't just have them fight a couple of Frost Giants. Have them fight Frost Giants on a slippery glacier where the frost giants can maneuver through a network of ravines and tunnels beneath the ice, have a snow fort where they can unleash boulders from behind cover, and are backed up by pet white dragons, winter wolves, and their own spell casters with Bless and the like.

 

[Zardnaar]

An optimized party in every edition has sometime after 10th level started breaking the game. First edition was no different, especially after Unearthed Arcana came along and gave the players more ways to break the game.

It sounds to me like you've got the following problems:

a) A few feats are OP.
b) The most OP feats are the ones that allow ranged combat, and ranged attackers have a tactical answer to pretty much everything in just turreting and unleashing the pain. Your party has correctly hit on the 'all ranged attacker' strategy that is optimal whenever ranged attackers can compete with anything else in damage.
c) You are over 10th level, and over 10th level has always been problematic with a D20 resolution system.
d) You got to 10th level too quickly. The game was just released this year. Are you playing 16 hours a week or something? Slow down. Reduce the XP awards. There is no need to rush up to bigger numbers. I don't expect my current campaign to hit 10th level before its 6th year of play.
e) If 5e is anything like 1e, there aren't really good guidelines for how to challenge players above 10th level. In general, straight up fights with monsters stop being challenging. There are only so many Hill Giants you can have in the fight before it gets boring. You'll need to add terrain, environmental hazards, unusual situations, and 'fog of war' to keep high level PC's on their toes.

None of that is insurmountable.

a) Nerf the OP feats, particularly the ranged combat ones. Since they involve large numbers, this should be easy. Start off with -5/+5, though frankly even that seems likely to be too good. Why that wasn't realized in play testing I don't know. In general, ranged combat has to be strictly inferior in terms of damage production to melee combat, or else it is strictly superior.
b) Half the XP awards. Stay in the sweet spot as long as possible.
c) Gain some system mastery before getting into high level play, and implement some lessons learned in how you create set piece encounters. Don't just have them fight a couple of Frost Giants. Have them fight Frost Giants on a slippery glacier where the frost giants can maneuver through a network of ravines and tunnels beneath the ice, have a snow fort where they can unleash boulders from behind cover, and are backed up by pet white dragons, winter wolves, and their own spell casters with Bless and the like.

We were playing 16 hours a week some weeks with a Thursday session (4 hours) and a Sunday session that is general 8-10 hours. You level up a lot faster in 5E roughly every 2 4 hour sessions. Also we did try the add more monsters thing and you level up even faster. The game is designed for faster levelling so you can make it to level 20 playing a 4 hour session every week some weeks we get in 3-4 4 hour sessions in effect.

Its not just the feats that ruin things at high level its weak monster, the saving throw system and some spells that are just out right broken all by themselves which ATM probably includes Contagion and Force cage maybe Ottos Irresistible Dance. Bless is a sneaky spell and I think it is overpowered and maybe even outright broken as casting bless in a 3rd level spell slot is actually better than haste for a buff spell.

Breaking concentration can be difficult with the warcaster feat or resilient feat and bless.

 

[SilverfireSage]

We were playing 16 hours a week some weeks with a Thursday session (4 hours) and a Sunday session that is general 8-10 hours. You level up a lot faster in 5E roughly every 2 4 hour sessions. Also we did try the add more monsters thing and you level up even faster. The game is designed for faster levelling so you can make it to level 20 playing a 4 hour session every week some weeks we get in 3-4 4 hour sessions in effect.

Simplest solution: Stop using experience points. In my 10 years of DMing, I've only used experience points once and that was in the Starter Set of 5E. Experience points have never been that important to my group, just the act of leveling has, and I reward them by milestone. So, if they complete their goal (beat the big baddie, rescue the person, etc.) then they get to level up. Typically this happens once every couple sessions, but we only play once a month for a straight 8 hours so we're certainly not the norm. But they've never complained, never asked to go back to experience points, and everyone's been happy.

Its not just the feats that ruin things at high level its weak monster, the saving throw system and some spells that are just out right broken all by themselves which ATM probably includes Contagion and Force cage maybe Ottos Irresistible Dance. Bless is a sneaky spell and I think it is overpowered and maybe even outright broken as casting bless in a 3rd level spell slot is actually better than haste for a buff spell.

Contagion only takes effect after they fail three saving throws, which for high level monsters with good constitutions, may take a while. Force cage is fine if you really want to trap and get one person or a small group out of the way, but using it against the big baddie is almost worthless since you can't hurt him inside the cage either. If the baddie is too big, like a dragon, the force cage is worthless, since it just shunts the dragon out of it. Ottos Irresistible Dance is pretty great, but it's also 6th level, and the creature gets to make wisdom saving throws every round against it. In fact, with all of these spells, I would be far more worried that a Lich or some other caster would use those against the party! Imagine your front line fighters taken out of the battle with Force Cage, and your wizard and bard must suddenly deal with 5 giants alone? Imagine your clueless fighter getting hit with Ottos Irresistible Dance and getting pummeled by a low level ogre! These are all good spells with drawbacks, but always remember that whatever the PCs can use, the NPCs can use as well. As for Bless, I actually don't see much of a problem. +1d4 is pretty good, sure, but at the level you're describing the Cleric should have a lot more and better Concentration spells than that to use. Not to mention at that level, monsters do an obscene amount of damage, making the Concentration check very difficult to make.

Breaking concentration can be difficult with the warcaster feat or resilient feat and bless.

Your OP PCs decided to take warcaster instead of up one of their Ability Scores to the maximum, so that's pretty good in my book.

I think I see the problem though, and it has to do with CR and encounter design. Do not design encounters with CR. It is a weird, seemingly arbitrary number that doesn't speak to the difficulty of the encounter. Instead, use the EXP calculator in the DM's guide or in the Basic Rules. You'll quickly find that a group of 4 PCs level 12 should be able to take on any adult dragon with no casualties, but then find that adding even one extra monster into that mix makes the encounter far more difficult. More monsters means a lot more in this edition than it has in the past, so if the PCs are giving you grief, shut em down with overwhelming numbers!

Oh, quick question though, you said in your OP that you have 12th level PCs, but in your above post you complain about several 7th level spells. How are they getting these spells?

 

[Zardnaar]

Simplest solution: Stop using experience points. In my 10 years of DMing, I've only used experience points once and that was in the Starter Set of 5E. Experience points have never been that important to my group, just the act of leveling has, and I reward them by milestone. So, if they complete their goal (beat the big baddie, rescue the person, etc.) then they get to level up. Typically this happens once every couple sessions, but we only play once a month for a straight 8 hours so we're certainly not the norm. But they've never complained, never asked to go back to experience points, and everyone's been happy.



Contagion only takes effect after they fail three saving throws, which for high level monsters with good constitutions, may take a while. Force cage is fine if you really want to trap and get one person or a small group out of the way, but using it against the big baddie is almost worthless since you can't hurt him inside the cage either. If the baddie is too big, like a dragon, the force cage is worthless, since it just shunts the dragon out of it. Ottos Irresistible Dance is pretty great, but it's also 6th level, and the creature gets to make wisdom saving throws every round against it. In fact, with all of these spells, I would be far more worried that a Lich or some other caster would use those against the party! Imagine your front line fighters taken out of the battle with Force Cage, and your wizard and bard must suddenly deal with 5 giants alone? Imagine your clueless fighter getting hit with Ottos Irresistible Dance and getting pummeled by a low level ogre! These are all good spells with drawbacks, but always remember that whatever the PCs can use, the NPCs can use as well. As for Bless, I actually don't see much of a problem. +1d4 is pretty good, sure, but at the level you're describing the Cleric should have a lot more and better Concentration spells than that to use. Not to mention at that level, monsters do an obscene amount of damage, making the Concentration check very difficult to make.



Your OP PCs decided to take warcaster instead of up one of their Ability Scores to the maximum, so that's pretty good in my book.

I think I see the problem though, and it has to do with CR and encounter design. Do not design encounters with CR. It is a weird, seemingly arbitrary number that doesn't speak to the difficulty of the encounter. Instead, use the EXP calculator in the DM's guide or in the Basic Rules. You'll quickly find that a group of 4 PCs level 12 should be able to take on any adult dragon with no casualties, but then find that adding even one extra monster into that mix makes the encounter far more difficult. More monsters means a lot more in this edition than it has in the past, so if the PCs are giving you grief, shut em down with overwhelming numbers!

Oh, quick question though, you said in your OP that you have 12th level PCs, but in your above post you complain about several 7th level spells. How are they getting these spells?

Variant human they more or less got warcaster as a racial ability. Sorry we had 2 games running I was DMing a 12 level game and finished another campaign at level 13.

Overwhelming numbers kind of works but you are breaking the encounter guidelines doing that. We do not use them that much anyway but the encounters rules are bad and do not work very well.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It isn't though. The guidelines of D&D are played to the hard rules of the DM.

Or at least played to the hard rules that the players can't fast talk, manipulate or bully their way past.

The DM can, of course, always house rule.

But as written, the Great Weapon Master feat applies to any weapon with the "heavy" property. Lots of pole arms have that. (And that's just the second benefit. The first applies to any melee weapon.)

 

[BigVanVader]

The DM can, of course, always house rule.

But as written, the Great Weapon Master feat applies to any weapon with the "heavy" property. Lots of pole arms have that. (And that's just the second benefit. The first applies to any melee weapon.)

Yeah. The guideline as written says that.

 

[Ahrimon]

Variant human they more or less got warcaster as a racial ability. Sorry we had 2 games running I was DMing a 12 level game and finished another campaign at level 13.

Overwhelming numbers kind of works but you are breaking the encounter guidelines doing that. We do not use them that much anyway but the encounters rules are bad and do not work very well.

I just got my DMG and haven't had a chance to read it, but how do hordes of monsters break the encounter guidelines? As long as you stay within budget the numbers don't matter do they? I'm honestly curious, because numbers and terrain are often the best ways to deal with powerful characters.

Another thing to consider is something I've taken to heart after DM'ng 3rd edition. It wasn't written into the rules but it was some advice I picked up. In 3e the xp awarded was based on the challenge and not the monster itself. A challenge 4 monster was worth more xp to a 4th level party than an 8th level party. So it stands to reason that if a group is exceptionally powerful then they should be considered higher on the scale. So a powerful 8th level party could be considered lvl 10 or more when calculating xp. So, since then I've always taken a look at the groups power level. If they were exceptionally powerful I would lower the XP for the encounters. This applies to social encounters too. If I have a group of suave fast talkers then they'll probably get less xp for the social scenes but more if they end up in a fight. I haven't played 5e yet, but if I DM it I will use these guidelines to wing the xp for a bit for the individual group.

 

[transtemporal]

There are also a few other things like the Sorlock (SorcerorX/Warlock2) and some of the healing builds which makes the game very easy.

This is what I mentioned earlier in the thread. Putting a bandaid on sharpshooter and gwm may not help if youve got a dozen papercuts. Basically, you need to examine all those combos youve mentioned in your "big damage" threads and decide whether they really are broken and if they are, tone em down. Then think about how the other classes stack up now those options are removed...

 

[Psikerlord#]

Overwhelming numbers kind of works but you are breaking the encounter guidelines doing that. We do not use them that much anyway but the encounters rules are bad and do not work very well.[/QUOTE]

If more monsters works just do that. The CR guidelines are precisely that - guidelines. As your group is highly optimised/tactical, you need to treat them as if they are a few levels higher.

By the time s party is 10th+, with magic items, feats, etc, I suspect no DM is following the CR guide.