Why Shouldn't I Ban "Come and Get It"?

[Midknightsun]

I see no real problem with this. Testosterone, (or er, estrogen) battle chaos, feigning weakness, playing to some NPCs' egoes, . . .nothing magical about it, just cleverness, attitude, and good timing. Nothing above the PCs head saying "hey, I soooo outlevel you and will cut you in half." The targets are likely thinking "Okay idiot, we'll gang up on you and kick your ass." Only when they're looking across the field at the lower half of their torso do they realize it may not have been a good plan afterall. . . That being said, I agree with an earlier poster. If the OP doesn't like it, take it out. Just make sure you let your players know, obviously.

 

[GoLu]

What if PCs battle PCs? Like when one gets forced to do so?

Dominated PCs can only use at will powers.

That said, a lot of the powers in 4e don't have a consistent explanation because any one you come up with will entirely fail to make sense in the right circumstances. So come up with a couple of generic ones, and then figure out which one to use on the fly, tweaking it as needed to fit the exact situation.

Given that things like 5'x5' squares and turn order are all approximations that don't really exist in the game world, a power that tweaks those might not even need to do anything at all from the characters' points of view.

 

[Harsgault]

When U.S. forces invaded Iraq on their mission to finally oust Saddam Hussien, the leading tanks had two duties. Destroy resistance, and protect the support troops coming behind them.

It was known that in front of them, lurking behind dunes and terrain were many Iraqi, Saudi, Iranian and Syrian men forming various militias equipped with pickup trucks and machineguns. These men quite smartly had the idea of letting the tanks pass right by without any resistance, then swoop down and attack the supply convoys those tanks needed in order to keep operating.

The people at PsyOps had a plan however, and strapped comically large speakers onto a number of tanks and humvees in the lead elements. They then broadcast vocally and over the radio insults at those men hidding behind the dunes in Arabic. Specific insults, designed to effect the psyche of their targets.

It worked. While the intelligent thing would have been for those militia to stick to their plan, they were so insulted and offended that they charged M1A2 formations with .30 cal machinegun armed trucks. They died. The supply convoys were safe, and coalition forces were in Bagdad in days.

It might not be logical to think that the Fighter can goad/trick the enemy into attacking what is clearly the party's strongpoint, but in battle logic all-too-often leaves the scene...

 

[Marnak]

Good House Rule

[/QUOTE]

Get Over Here - Attack 7
You challenge your opponents to a grand melee.
Encounter * Charm, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action - Close burst 3
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: Target must shift 2 and end adjacent to you, if possible. A target that can’t end adjacent to you doesn’t move.
___Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
___Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage
​

[/QUOTE]

I really like this change, and it makes much more sense to me. I plan to use this in my house rules instead of simply banning "Come and Get It" Thanks, Mengu!

Marnak

 

[Marnak]

When U.S. forces invaded Iraq on their mission to finally oust Saddam Hussien, the leading tanks had two duties. Destroy resistance, and protect the support troops coming behind them.

It was known that in front of them, lurking behind dunes and terrain were many Iraqi, Saudi, Iranian and Syrian men forming various militias equipped with pickup trucks and machineguns. These men quite smartly had the idea of letting the tanks pass right by without any resistance, then swoop down and attack the supply convoys those tanks needed in order to keep operating.

The people at PsyOps had a plan however, and strapped comically large speakers onto a number of tanks and humvees in the lead elements. They then broadcast vocally and over the radio insults at those men hidding behind the dunes in Arabic. Specific insults, designed to effect the psyche of their targets.

It worked. While the intelligent thing would have been for those militia to stick to their plan, they were so insulted and offended that they charged M1A2 formations with .30 cal machinegun armed trucks. They died. The supply convoys were safe, and coalition forces were in Bagdad in days.

It might not be logical to think that the Fighter can goad/trick the enemy into attacking what is clearly the party's strongpoint, but in battle logic all-too-often leaves the scene...

This a good historical reference. I don't doubt that enemies can, at times, be goaded. What I object to is the fact that the enemies can't NOT be goaded with the "Come and Get It" power in the RAW. Perhaps some portion of the Iraqis charged the M1A2 formations while others wisely chose to follow the original plan. Such flexibility is why you have a DM (or at least a roll like Mengu's Strength vs. Will) instead of an automatic computer reaction.

Marnak

 

[Bluenose]

This a good historical reference. I don't doubt that enemies can, at times, be goaded. What I object to is the fact that the enemies can't NOT be goaded with the "Come and Get It" power in the RAW. Perhaps some portion of the Iraqis charged the M1A2 formations while others wisely chose to follow the original plan. Such flexibility is why you have a DM (or at least a roll like Mengu's Strength vs. Will) instead of an automatic computer reaction.

Marnak

I'd probably do it as Charisma vs. Will.

One other historical reference:

The Roman army is besieging Jerusalem during the Jewish Revolt. A defender, one Jonathan, comes out of a postern gate near that Roman lines and starts taunting them, challenging any of them to fight him. And this being the highly disciplined Roman army, someone does. Unfortunately for Jonathan, after he wins a rather more sensible Roman shoots him with a bow and kills him. Both sides start jeering at each other after this.

Josephus, BJ 6, 69-79 if you want to look it up yourself.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This a good historical reference. I don't doubt that enemies can, at times, be goaded. What I object to is the fact that the enemies can't NOT be goaded with the "Come and Get It" power in the RAW. Perhaps some portion of the Iraqis charged the M1A2 formations while others wisely chose to follow the original plan. Such flexibility is why you have a DM (or at least a roll like Mengu's Strength vs. Will) instead of an automatic computer reaction.

Marnak

The player decides to use the power. This allows him to exercise narrative control in the game, saying "these guys all fall for the trick".

 

[gnfnrf]

[silliness]When I read the power, all I could think of was Scorpio, saying "Get Over Here!" I haven't quite figured out how he does it in a burst yet. Maybe he has a weighted, barbed, cat o' nine tails.[/silliness]

I also think the charm keyword is missing there. An interesting variation on the power could be the following:

Adding the charm keyword is a bad idea, IMHO. Consider your fighter in a battle against five or six strange, twisted, corrupted humanoids. He tries to goad them into approaching...

but they're foulspawn berserkers (MM p 112). Now, he takes 50 damage due the magical feedback caused by taunting.

On the other hand, the power as written may have equally implausible scenarios.

I think the answer to the OP is that, as written, the martial power source allows PCs to perform feats that would be supernatural in our universe. This isn't the only one. The key is that such feats aren't supernatural for the DnD universe.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Mort_Q]

What if PCs battle PCs? Like when one gets forced to do so?

PCs, as far as I know, can only use basic attacks when controlled.

 

[James McMurray]

Dominated PCs can only use at will powers.

PCs, as far as I know, can only use basic attacks when controlled.

Mind control isn't the only way to make people do what you want.