Raven Crowking said:
I agree that this is the fundamental source of disagreement.
"Mundane" is anything that doesn't seem to require the laws of physics to be broken, or on which the players involved can at least suspend disbelief that physics is unbroken.
"Mystical" is something that seems to require the laws of physics to be broken, or that which the players involved can no longer suspend disbelief as to physical possiblity.
As such, both terms are pretty subjective. They are important only as they relate to what given players want from their gaming experience, and how suspension of disbelief re: physical possibility affects whether or not they are getting what they want.
Well, when you use those definitions, I think the conversation would be better suited to a different set of terms (since Mundane has negative connotations and Mystical has different definitons that conflict with yours), but I guess I will use your terms and defnitions for now.
First, I need to ask for clarification. When you say "laws of physics", are you just referring to basic principles like conservation of energy, gravity, etc, or are you also referring to the real world physical limits of the human body? In other words, can a person cut through a tree trunk twice with two cuts of a sword, in less than 6 seconds, and still be "mundane"?
However, on the suspension of disbelief idea... I think it is important that there is a wide gap between what is
actually possible, and what people are
willing to believe is possible. Often people are willing to accept far more than what is possible, and sometimes people do not accept what is actually quite possible. As such, I don't think it is useful to equate suspension of disbelief and the actual laws of physics like you do. I do not think that the two are closely related enough for their combination to be applicable.
I will, however, admit that suspension of disbelief is very important, and that is has ties to the real world. However, these ties only exist when mediated through human perception of the real world, and human imagination. Genres and tropes of fiction influence the limits of suspension of disbelief as much as the real world itself.
To clarify a bit, I think the classic "unprotected person being immersed in lava, yet still surviving" scenerio is a classic example of going beyond the boundary of suspension of disbelief. However, this has as much to do with human ideas of the destructiveness of lava, as much as it does with physical reality. After all, most people would worry about the heat, rather than the crushing weight of the lava. Fewer still are the people who know that it is impossible to be immersed in lava, because people are
far less dense than magma, and would easily float. However, because of this misconception, the idea of a person who can survive lava
so long as they have proper protection from the heat is quite within normal suspension of disbelief. I have played videogames with that concept, and haven't blinked an eye at it.
A great game would allow for the widest range of possibilities, of course, but if we can't have that, most of us would like to be able to easily find players for the sorts of games we like.....and that, generally, means that D&D follows our playstyle more than it veers away from it. Indeed, AFAICT, that is what all of these 4e arguments are about, regardless of who is posting, or what is said.
We want to be able to find players for a game that can easily be played in a playstyle we enjoy. And we don't all enjoy the same playstyle.
RC
This is all obvious enough, but I am glad there is someone who said it without adding bias.
