Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Engilbrand]

I stand by the idea that Batman isn't "normal" by our standards. He's impossible in the real world. He's possible in his reality because he's special. In D&D, PCs are special. They can already do impressive things, even at low levels. For their reality, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do the ridiculous things. The Bo9S maneuvers that were magical all belong to the Swordsage, so that doesn't even really count as a Fighter. Can anyone give me a good reason that a powerful Fighter shouldn't be able to jump 20 feet straight up in the air wearing Full Plate within the bounds of the D&D world? It's not "realistic" doesn't count because it's not our world.

 

[The Merciful]

Definitely inappropriate. In addition to provoking a check for massive damage, it allows for cleaving of adamantine walls in a single stroke.

Then the problem is that the rules don't pit hardness of the tool used (sword) against the hardness of the wall.

I also do find it a tad hypocritical to wail about fighters becoming part time magic-users when every other core class in D&D is that already (rogues have "use magic device" class skill, Davy Crocketts "entangle" enemies, and Sir Lancelotts cast "protection from evil" on themselves. Errrm...

I do think fighters, rangers, rogues and paladins should all be non magical in flavor, but they also should be varied, interesting, and on par with casters powervise. (Heck, I think in fiction a warrior's prime anti-caster tactic was to charge the sorcerer and and depicate the geezer before he could do any harm.)

 

[shilsen]

Can anyone give me a good reason that a powerful Fighter shouldn't be able to jump 20 feet straight up in the air wearing Full Plate within the bounds of the D&D world? It's not "realistic" doesn't count because it's not our world.

There isn't a good reason. We're talking about a world which approximates much better to the reality of myth and legend (more than in most fantasy literature), where sufficiently skilled people with no magical ability can swim through a raging river (Achilles) or across an ocean (Beowulf) in full armor. I'd say that jumping 20 ft straight up fits perfectly with the context.

 

[Cadfan]

There should be internal consistency to the gameworld, and multiple character archetypes should be possible.

This means that a grim, gritty fighter without magical abilities should be possible.

I just think its ok to represent that with, say, an Iron Heart warblade. The closest he comes to a magical ability is the ability to shrug off magical effects, and the flavor for that is just that he's so determined that he can force his way through something like Hold Person.

Its admittedly not the best drafted ability in the game, and if you read it overbroadly on purpose it gets crazy, but I don't think it counts as magical or mystical if its read in the spirit the flavor text indicates it was intended.

 

[AllisterH]

Bigger comic book geek moment here....When Batman recently fought the Karate Kid (supposedly best hand-to-hand fighter ever, from the Legion of Superheroes), Batman won. Of course, he cheated to do so, but the KK did decide that Batman was vastly underrated as a martial artist.

Also, it is now pretty normal for any "combat fighter" type to claim having trained with Batman.

RC

As a longtime poster on Comicbook resources and lurker on newsrama, I speak for many when I say,

"BATGOD"

There is no way that Batman should even have a chance in hell against karate kid. A guy who could stalemate PRE-CRISIS Daxamites/Kryptonians a.k.a "We can push planets and blow out suns!!!".

It's already been SMvsFL'd already....

 

[Mercule]

In other words, the difference between Batman and Superman is mainly flavor. There's some power-level stuff too, like Superman would probably need to be higher level than Batman, but there's not a huge gap in their functional power array. The stuff they can do isn't all that different, even if the flavor (how the do it) is quite distinct.

I can't totally argue with that. But, that doesn't mean flavor doesn't matter. It absolutely matters. As much as I like Superman's Boyscout complex, I'm a much bigger fan of Batman for just the reason of the flavor of a human skill-monkey over an alien demigod.

It's the same thing with exaggerated mundane fighters (Hollywood physics++) vs. wuxia wirework fighters. I don't really care if both can bypass DR with their sword -- I care that the "mundane" fighter does it through skill and years of practice in recognizing small flaws while the wuxia fighter channels ki energy (just to pick an example). Similar flavor preferences apply to falling 100 ft. and walking away, breaking down doors, or jumping big holes.

Channeling energy, whether universal or personal, is magic. I don't want my stories of superheroic fighters to be told in terms of magic. I want them framed by a lifting of the physical and skill limits of humans. It's a very subtle difference, and the end result is often the same, but it's a flavorful difference.

And, ultimately, flavor is a personal, aesthetic opinion. It is rarely right or wrong. It's not wrong for people to want the wuxia-style of overtly supernatural high-level fighters. But, there's nothing wrong with the people who want more mundanely themed high-level fighters. It's just the difference is preferring Western myths to Eastern myths.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I can't totally argue with that. But, that doesn't mean flavor doesn't matter. It absolutely matters. As much as I like Superman's Boyscout complex, I'm a much bigger fan of Batman for just the reason of the flavor of a human skill-monkey over an alien demigod.

It's the same thing with exaggerated mundane fighters (Hollywood physics++) vs. wuxia wirework fighters. I don't really care if both can bypass DR with their sword -- I care that the "mundane" fighter does it through skill and years of practice in recognizing small flaws while the wuxia fighter channels ki energy (just to pick an example). Similar flavor preferences apply to falling 100 ft. and walking away, breaking down doors, or jumping big holes.

Channeling energy, whether universal or personal, is magic. I don't want my stories of superheroic fighters to be told in terms of magic. I want them framed by a lifting of the physical and skill limits of humans. It's a very subtle difference, and the end result is often the same, but it's a flavorful difference.

And, ultimately, flavor is a personal, aesthetic opinion. It is rarely right or wrong. It's not wrong for people to want the wuxia-style of overtly supernatural high-level fighters. But, there's nothing wrong with the people who want more mundanely themed high-level fighters. It's just the difference is preferring Western myths to Eastern myths.

+ Rep

 

[Mallus]

I don't want my stories of superheroic fighters to be told in terms of magic. I want them framed by a lifting of the physical and skill limits of humans.

Isn't that just another way of saying "I don't want to play high level fighters"?

But, there's nothing wrong with the people who want more mundanely themed high-level fighters. It's just the difference is preferring Western myths to Eastern myths.

Several posters have already pointed up that the heroes of Western mythology are far from mundane. They did things like wrestle rivers and shoot 1,000,000+ arrows in the course of a single battle, so in that regard, these tales are irrevocable told in terms of magic, or at least that's how they're received in audiences full of rational-type people.

 

[Nifft]

It is rarely right or wrong. It's not wrong for people to want the wuxia-style of overtly supernatural high-level fighters. But, there's nothing wrong with the people who want more mundanely themed high-level fighters. It's just the difference is preferring Western myths to Eastern myths.

Are you calling Superman "wuxia", or is this a tangent?

Regarding "channeling energy" vs. "years of practice / seeing flaws" -- if there's no functional difference in the mechanics, why can't you just add whichever flavor you like? As long as we're going off on the east vs. west tangent, let's be practical: the dude practicing with a sword in the east may say he's "channeling ki", while the dude in the west says he's just had a lot of practice, but under the hood they are probably doing the same thing -- and what specifically that thing is, is up to you and your DM's campaign setting.

Seriously, what's the difference between "skill guides me" vs. "ki guides me" vs. "Crom guides me"? If it can't be dispelled, it's as good as mundane.

Cheers, -- N

 

[pawsplay]

Well, technically, an adamantine wall 3 inches thick has hardness 20 and 120 hp (SRD on Epic Obstacles), so that ability in itself isn't going to get you through it in a single stroke. But yes, you can get through 2-inch thick adamantium doors (hardness 20, 80 hp) as a standard action.

Uh, you seem to have forgotten the base damage of the attack. Assuming you can do at least 40 hp, yes, Virginia, you can cleave the adamantine wall in one stroke.

Is a barbarian chewing through with Power Attack also silly? Of course. It's slightly less silly, in that it at least looks like he has to work hard. But it's still silly. That doesn't really alter the argument much.