Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[hong]

Now, powers for rogues, i'm at a loss at hw this will work without crossing into the mystical, ala Shadow Hand from B9S

People who want to play ninjae won't be bothered about that.

 

[PeterWeller]

Er, comic book geek moment.

That's not true as Batman doesn't even rank in the top 5 and the only ones he has personally taught were the Robins and none of them ever get ranked in the top 10.

Well yeah, there are better martial artists than Batman and the Bat family, but still, we're talking about the top 20-50 martial artists in the world, many of which learned their skills from Bats. Batman isn't the world's greatest martial artist, but he's in the top ten, owns one of the two largest corporations in the world, and is the world's best detective, and is amongst the world's top ten scientists. Dude's frikking super powered on his own even before you add in all his toys, which was my point.

 

[Hussar]

Me, as long as I can still make fighters that have unstoppable ripostes, undefeatable tumbles, and irresistible swings, instead of fire trails, mirror images, and fiery exploding swings, then I'll be happy. I'm happy with an ability that allows STR damage even on a miss, or a devastating penetrating spear attack, or extra attacks with flails - those are still rooted in skill, even if it's skill that is stretching the bounds of plausiblity a little.

Somehow, I think this is exactly what we'll see. Looking at ToB, you can do exactly this. You can also do the funky shooting fire from your petoot as well. But, I think, especially given what we've already heard, that the fighter's abilities will be decidedly non-magical sounding.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I firmly hope we have excellent non-magical powers available for martial characters at every level of play.


I have equal hope that we have ridiculously fantastic superhuman powers for martial characters at higher levels of play.


Certainly, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon completely opened my eyes to how wide fantasy should be, but...


Achilles, man, Achilles.

He wrestles a river. Sure, to get out of it he has to call in a god to turn into a sheet of fire and nuke the battlefield enough to convince the river to call uncle, but he still wrestles a river.

Why? Because he has killed so many men that the river is afraid it will be dammed by all the corpses.

At some point I want the option to play that in DnD. I want to throw martial world breakers at my players. Men and Women of will and fury so terrible they cause the gods to tremble.

Invulnerability's got nothing to do with it. I just want that level of mythopsychodrama that portrayal of traumatic fury as a feedback loop for the pathetic fallacy to be available as something the PCs have to grapple with in themselves and others.

At the same time:

I would feel cheated if someone missed the opportunity to take that guy out with a character who was mundane in all ways except for a superhuman level of competency.

 

[Henry]

Certainly, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon completely opened my eyes to how wide fantasy should be, but...


Achilles, man, Achilles.

He wrestles a river. Sure, to get out of it he has to call in a god to turn into a sheet of fire and nuke the battlefield enough to convince the river to call uncle, but he still wrestles a river.

Why? Because he has killed so many men that the river is afraid it will be dammed by all the corpses.

I can just see the reaction of one of my players in particular...

DM: ...your devastating attacks cleave all 4 of the orcs in one huge sweep. They fall, clearing the battlefield, finally.

Player:Whew! Good LORD I didn't think he'd have to face all 1200 of those damned orcs!

DM: That's when the river rises off from its banks, and glares at you.

Player: {looking directly at me} Excuse me?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It's when the DM starts describing the river as entering a wrestler's stance that you really start calculating how much money you owed him for that pizza.

 

[erc1971]

Because fighters are martial characters. They are skilled in what they do, but what they do is mundane. They swing a sword (or axe, halberd, spear, etc) and do it with style and even what appears to be superhuman skill at high levels but they are fundamentally non-magical.

I swear by all that is holy that if 4e has fighters with actual magical powers, not flashy, cinematic, non-anime moves but actually magical crap sputtering out of their swords I will not buy another thing from WoTC. If that crap were to be made a part of the core D&D assumptions regarding what D&D warriors are like I will not DM or play 4e. I would stick to Conan D20 and True20 and pay no further attention to D&D from that point on.

D&D warriors are Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, King Arthur and not friggin Inuyasha. ::chokes back some vomit::

Wow, I found my deal-breaker.....lucky me. :\



Sundragon

QFT - Amen Brother!

 

[Archmage]

Because fighters are martial characters. They are skilled in what they do, but what they do is mundane. They swing a sword (or axe, halberd, spear, etc) and do it with style and even what appears to be superhuman skill at high levels but they are fundamentally non-magical.

I swear by all that is holy that if 4e has fighters with actual magical powers, not flashy, cinematic, non-anime moves but actually magical crap sputtering out of their swords I will not buy another thing from WoTC. If that crap were to be made a part of the core D&D assumptions regarding what D&D warriors are like I will not DM or play 4e. I would stick to Conan D20 and True20 and pay no further attention to D&D from that point on.

D&D warriors are Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, King Arthur and not friggin Inuyasha. ::chokes back some vomit::

QFT - Amen Brother!

So Inuyasha shouldn't be an option? And where do I join the committee that decides who D&D warriors are? Sundragon's apparently on it. Posts like this indicate not reading the many parts of this thread that point out the NON-magical nature of most of the Book of Nine Swords' maneuvers. There are two of nine disciplines that are largely supernatural (three if you include Devoted Spirit, which are paladinish/priestish in flavor), and the entire "Book of 9 Swords is a 4th edition preview" gets judged on those two (or three) disciplines. I don't think anyone's saying that *every* warrior has to be an oriental mystic....but if that's one option among several, how is that a bad thing?

 

[Nifft]

That I agree with, I was just saying Bats is a lot more capable than just a dude with gadgets. He is a pretty decent analogy for a 3E Figher, a total BA, who is toting gear that puts him on par with other BAs possessing inherent power sources.

The funny thing about this? The best analogue for Batman in D&D is the Wizard.

The Wizard is the one with the "utility belt" of situational tricks (scrolls & prepared spells). He's the smart guy who can make those Knowledge and Craft (alchemy) skill checks. He's the one who, given a lot of money and a secure location, can make the solution to absolutely any problem.

The Wizard is Batman except for the Kapow! -- but a Wizard can even do that a few times per day.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

The funny thing about this? The best analogue for Batman in D&D is the Wizard Artificer.

IMO.